ĐĎࡱá>ţ˙ âäţ˙˙˙ĐŃŇÓÔŐÖ×ŘŮÚŰÜÝŢßŕá˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ěĄÁ€ řż*ä bjbj´˘´˘ 7ŞÖČÖČ*Ü ˙˙˙˙˙˙·. . qqqqq˙˙˙˙…………ŚŚ…Ä°žť$*Ç(Ç(Ç(Ç(Ö)üŇ2¬~5XC°E°E°E°E°E°E°$b˛˘µbi°qŃ:Ö)Ö)Ń:Ń:i°qqÇ(Ç(~°‰Ş‰Ş‰ŞŃ:ćqÇ(qÇ(C°‰ŞŃ:C°‰Ş‰Ş:­,w­Ç(˙˙˙˙p­`ŐجĎ…·RV?­ /°”°0Ä°I­.fµĹ¨.fµw­fµqw­¸Ö6,8Ö‰ŞŘ8¬„9MÖ6Ö6Ö6i°i°ó¨–Ö6Ö6Ö6Ä°Ń:Ń:Ń:Ń:˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙fµÖ6Ö6Ö6Ö6Ö6Ö6Ö6Ö6Ö6. 7:  Wreck Commissioners' Court. SCOTTISH HALL, BUCKINGHAM GATE, Thursday, 23rd May, 1912. PROCEEDINGS THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY, Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom, WITH REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N., CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE, COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R., PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc., MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R. Acting as Assessors. ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC." DAY 14 - 18 Contents  TOC \o "1-3" \h \z \u  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587860" FOURTEENTH DAY.  PAGEREF _Toc394587860 \h 3  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587861" GEORGE ELLIOTT TURNBULL, Recalled.  PAGEREF _Toc394587861 \h 4  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587862" HAROLD BRIDE, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587862 \h 21  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587863" GEORGE ELLIOTT TURNBULL, Recalled.  PAGEREF _Toc394587863 \h 22  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587864" HAROLD BRIDE, Recalled.  PAGEREF _Toc394587864 \h 24  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587865" CHARLES HERBERT LIGHTOLLER, Recalled.  PAGEREF _Toc394587865 \h 45  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587866" JOSEPH GROVE BOXALL, Recalled.  PAGEREF _Toc394587866 \h 51  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587867" HERBERT JOHN PITMAN, Recalled.  PAGEREF _Toc394587867 \h 57  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587868" HAROLD GODFREY LOWE, Recalled.  PAGEREF _Toc394587868 \h 59  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587869" FIFTEENTH DAY.  PAGEREF _Toc394587869 \h 61  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587870" HAROLD THOMAS COTTAM, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587870 \h 62  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587871" FREDERICK FLEET, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587871 \h 74  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587872" GEORGE ALFRED HOGG, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587872 \h 87  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587873" GEORGE THOMAS ROWE, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587873 \h 91  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587874" SAMUEL HEMMING, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587874 \h 98  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587875" Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.  PAGEREF _Toc394587875 \h 100  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587876" WILFRID SEWARD, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587876 \h 101  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587877" SIXTEENTH DAY.  PAGEREF _Toc394587877 \h 104  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587878" ALFRED CRAWFORD, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587878 \h 105  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587879" EDWARD JOHN BULEY, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587879 \h 117  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587880" ERNEST ARCHER, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587880 \h 118  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587881" ERNEST GILL, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587881 \h 119  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587882" JOSEPH BRUCE ISMAY, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587882 \h 123  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587883" SEVENTEENTH DAY.  PAGEREF _Toc394587883 \h 164  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587884" JOSEPH BRUCE ISMAY, Recalled.  PAGEREF _Toc394587884 \h 165  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587885" HAROLD ARTHUR SANDERSON, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587885 \h 186  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587886" EIGHTEENTH DAY.  PAGEREF _Toc394587886 \h 213  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587887" HAROLD ARTHUR SANDERSON, Recalled.  PAGEREF _Toc394587887 \h 214  HYPERLINK \l "_Toc394587888" EDWARD WILDING, Sworn.  PAGEREF _Toc394587888 \h 248  Wreck Commissioners' Court. SCOTTISH HALL, BUCKINGHAM GATE, Thursday, 23rd May, 1912. PROCEEDINGS THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY, Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom, WITH REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N., CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE, COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R., PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc., MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R. Acting as Assessors. ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC." FOURTEENTH DAY. THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade. THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line. MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors’ and Firemen’s Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.) MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.) MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers’ Union. (Admitted on application.) MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.) MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.) MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company. MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers’ Association. (Admitted on application.) MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., (instructed by Messrs. Helder, Roberts and Co.), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers Union of Great Britain and Ireland. (Admitted on application.) MR. W. D. HARBINSON (instructed by Mr. Farrell) appeared on behalf of the third-class passengers. (Admitted on application.) MR. ROBERTSON DUNLOP watched the proceedings on behalf of the owners and officers of the s.s. “Californian.” (Leyland Line). (Admitted on Application.) MR. H. E. DUKE, K. C., M. P., and MR. VAUGHAN WILIAMS (instructed by Messrs. A. F. and R. W. Tweedie) appeared as Counsel on behalf of Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon. (Admitted on Application.) Sir Robert Finlay: My Lord, I will not interrupt this witness (Turnbull) of course, but by-and-bye I desire permission to recall both Mr. Lightoller and Mr. Boxhall with regard to the question whether these messages were ever transmitted to the Captain or any of the officers on board the “Titanic”? The Commissioner: Very well, quite right.. Sir Robert Finlay: As far as I recollect, no questions were put to Mr. Lightoller on the subject at all or to Mr. Boxhall, except in re-examination. The Solicitor-General: I think Sir Robert is right, and I realise, whatever we prove or do not prove with the help of the witness, we do not in any case by this evidence do more than carry messages to the Marconi office on the “Titanic.” What happened to them when they got into that office is not a matter which the present witness can tell at all. The Commissioner: Nor does it matter. The Solicitor-General: Well, of course, it matters from the point of view of liability, because, of course, the Marconi operator may be regarded as not in the service of the White Star Company; he may not be their servant, your Lordship sees. The Commissioner: Well, in a sense, he is not. Sir Robert Finlay: I think, my Lord, in no sense is he in the service of the ship. Of course he is under discipline as everyone on board the ship must be, but he is not in their service; he is the servant of the Marconi Company. The Commissioner: Still he is there, I suppose, for the very purpose, as a servant of the Marconi Company of communicating to the people in charge of the ship the messages which he gets which would affect the navigation. Sir Robert Finlay: Yes. I think we should be able without going into detail at the present moment to satisfy your Lordship beyond all doubt that these messages, the “Mesaba” message and the “Amerika” message, were not communicated either to the Commander or to any of the officers on board the “Titanic.” The Commissioner: We need not say anything about it at present; we had better hear the evidence. GEORGE ELLIOTT TURNBULL, Recalled. Further examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL. 16088. We were asking you about these different messages in order of time, and I think you had given us evidence about the message from the “La Touraine”? - Yes. We need not go back on that. The next one I wanted some information about was the message from the “Caronia.” Your Lordship will remember this is only by way of confirmation, because on page 273 of the Shorthand Notes Captain Barr has already given evidence about it. Sir Robert Finlay: I do not think there is any dispute as to the “Caronia” message, my Lord. The Commissioner: No. I thought you could assist me by indicating the messages as we go along with this gentleman the receipt of which you dispute; that is the receipt of which you dispute so far as the officers were concerned. Sir Robert Finlay: Exactly, my Lord. 16089. (The Solicitor-General.) The only importance, if I may say so, of the “Caronia” message is this, that it gives us an illustration of the system, and therefore enables you to judge whether the evidence in the case of the “Mesaba” proves the point or not. That is the reason I want to call attention to it. I think Sir Robert will see it has a bearing in that way. (To the Witness.) Let us see what you know with regard to the “Caronia,” supposing we had to rely upon you for evidence. Have you the procčs-verbal of the “Caronia”? - Yes. 16090. You have told us what that is. Now can you find in the procčs-verbal of the “Caronia” any entry showing that the “Caronia” sent a message to the “Titanic” on the morning of the 14th April, and the time of it. 7.10 a.m. I think it was? - There was no entry in the procčs-verbal of the ice message. 16091. But please listen to me for a moment. I am asking you a question. It is quite clear. Have you got in the procčs-verbal of the “Caronia” any indication of a message being sent to the “Titanic” at 7.10 a.m.? - No, I have not. 16092. (The Commissioner.) I should like to see that procčs-verbal so that I may understand it? - I have it here. I was looking at p.m. “7.10 a.m. sent one to M.G.Y.” 16093. (The Solicitor-General.) What does “M.G.Y.” mean? - The “Titanic.” 16094. And 7.10 a.m. is 7.10 a.m. by what time. It is New York time, is it not? - Yes. 16095. So there is a record in the procčs-verbal of the “Caronia” sending a message to the “Titanic” at that time? - Yes. 16096. Have you a copy of the message? - Yes. 16097. What is the time of it? - 7.10 a.m. 16098. New York time? - New York time. 16099. Just read it out? - “Captain, ‘Titanic.’ West-bound steamers report bergs, growlers, and field ice in 42 degrees N., from 49 to 51 W. April 12. Compliments. Barr.” The Solicitor-General: Now, my Lord would like to see the procčs-verbal. The Commissioner: The date of the message is the 14th. The Solicitor-General: Yes. The Commissioner: But the ice has been reported on April 12th. The Solicitor-General: That is quite right. The Commissioner: Let me see this procčs-verbal. It is what I should call a diary. The Solicitor-General: That is exactly what it is, my Lord. The Commissioner: A diary kept by the Marconi operator on board the ship. The Solicitor-General: It is a log really kept in order of time. (The procčs-verbal was handed to the Commissioner.) The Commissioner: I cannot read it very well? - “Sent one to M.G.Y.” 16100. Yes. “About 50 words ZZ received.” What does that mean? - That is a reference to another piece of work which he had been doing. 16101. (The Solicitor-General.)The entry which refers to this is “7.10 a.m., sent one to M.G.Y.”? - Yes, and there it concludes. 16102. (The Commissioner.) What follows about “50 words ZZ received” has nothing to do with this? - No, nothing. The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship will see the only message he is there making a note of. Sir Robert Finlay: May I see it, my Lord? The Commissioner: Yes. (The procčs-verbal was handed to the Learned Counsel.) 16103. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Will you hand the message up to my Lord? - Yes. (Handing same.) 16104. And is that piece of paper which is now in the hands of Lord Mersey the document that you get in the ordinary course from the “Caronia,” a copy of what was sent at 7.10? - Yes, or rather that is the original. 16105. That is the original? - Yes. 16106. (The Commissioner.) Can you tell me this. Does the Captain of the “Caronia” fill up this form himself and hand it to the Marconi Officer on board his ship? - It is the practice; either the Captain or one of his responsible officers. The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship will see it is written on a form really like the sort of telegraph forms we are familiar with in Post Offices. The Commissioner: Yes, of course it is. 16107. (The Solicitor-General.) Now have you also got the acknowledgment of the “Titanic” sent back to the “Caronia” of that message? - Yes. 16108. You are holding that in your hand now? - Yes. 16109. Is that also supplied in the ordinary course to your office from the “Caronia”? - Yes. Sir Robert Finlay: Your Lordship will observe that on this telegram “12th April” appears at the end, that does not appear in the version of the message, I think, given in Captain Barr’s evidence. The Solicitor-General: No, I am very glad we have the original. It is agreed, I think, Sir Robert, that 12th April means that he had seen the ice on 12th April. Sir Robert Finlay: I think that is what it must mean. The Solicitor-General: The message is sent on 14th April. Sir Robert Finlay: Yes. 16110. (The Solicitor-General.) Now, will you just read the answer that you have got from the “Caronia” - “Time received l.26 p.m. Date, April 14th, Captain ‘Caronia.’ Thanks for message and information. Have had variable weather throughout - Smith.” The Commissioner: Now about that message there is no dispute. The Solicitor-General: No, my Lord. The Commissioner: I do not want you to make admissions, Sir Robert, but as far as I know that is so. Sir Robert Finlay: As far as I am aware, there is no dispute at all about the “Caronia.” The only thing is that Captain Barr does not say in the version he gives of the message anything about April 12th. The Solicitor-General: That only shows it is worthwhile looking at the original. Sir Robert Finlay: It does. That may be so, but that is the only point in which anything is added to what had, and is not in dispute. The Commissioner: That may be a point of importance. 16111. (The Solicitor-General.) That is the second one your Lordship sees. I went through it in a little detail to show your Lordship the system, because it is by means of that that one judges of the value of the evidence that is coming, as your Lordship will see. (To the Witness.) Now may we go to the third one. The third one that I wanted to ask you about is the message from the “Amerika.” Is the “Amerika’ a German steamer of the Hamburg-Amerika Line? - It is. Sir Robert Finlay: Your Lordship asked me to say which we admitted being given to the officers. We do not admit this. 16112. (The Solicitor-General.) I want to show, my Lord, what the facts are here as far as we know them. We will deal with them in the same order. (To the Witness.) First of all have you got the procčs-verbal of the “Amerika”? - I have. 16113. It is a German ship and the entry is in German? - It is. 16114. Just mark it in the margin and we will hand it up. “Sunday, 14th April, 1912.” I think it is at 11.47? - That is it. 16115. Is that a.m.? - A.m.. 16116. New York time? - New York time. 16117. What is the entry in the procčs-verbal? - The entry is in German “Nr. 5 und 6 zu M.G.Y.” 16118. It means No. 5 and 6 to the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16119. And does the number 5 and the No. 6 refer to the numeral on the message? - It does. 16120. And I think No. 5 is the one you are going to call attention to? - Yes. 16121. That in the same way your Lordship sees is the log. (To the Witness.) Now have you got the message which is referred to there as No. 5? - We have. 16122. I am going to ask you later how that is, but first of all let us have the message as it is before you. What is the time? - 11.45 in the morning. “To the steamer ‘Titanic’ M.S.G. via Cape Race to the Hydrographic Office, Washington. “D. S. ‘Amerika’ passed two large icebergs in 41 deg. 27 min. N., 50 deg. 8 min. W., on the 14th April.” Signed, “Knuth.” 16123. He is the Captain of the vessel? - Yes. 16124. (The Commissioner.) Now read it to me again? - “To the steamer ‘Titanic’ M.S.G. via Cape Race to the Hydrographic Office, Washington. D S ‘Amerika’ passed two large icebergs 41 deg. 27 min. N., 50 deg. 8 min. W., on the 14th April.” Signed, “Knuth.” 16125. It does not say what time? - It does not say what time. The Commissioner: But it must have been early in the day. 16126. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Now I want to see what the material is for judging whether that goes through the “Titanic.” First of all, is there any number on that to tell you what its number is - the number of the message? - Yes, there is No. 5. 16127. (The Commissioner.) What does No. 5 mean? Does it mean the fifth message sent out on that day? - It means the fifth message sent out on that day, yes. 16128. (The Solicitor-General.) That corresponds to No. 5 in the procčs-verbal? - Yes. 16129. The time of the message you say is 11.45? - 11.45 a.m. 16130. And in the procčs-verbal No. 5 is entered at 11.47? - Yes. 16131. Within two minutes? - Yes. 16132. And it is stated in the procčs-verbal that No. 5 is sent to the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16133. Is it a common practice in sending messages to a land station or to such a place as this hydrographic office to relay them through another ship? - Very common. The Commissioner: Explain what you mean. 16134. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Will you explain yourself? - The position of the “Amerika” was such that she was not at that moment within range of a coast station, but she was in communication with another ship which would very shortly be within range of that coast station. 16135. (The Commissioner.) It is passed on? - Yes, it is passed on. 16136. The message came to the “Amerika” from Cape Race, but originated in Washington? - No, it originated on the “Amerika,” intended for the Hydrographic Office, Washington, via Cape Race; but the “Amerika” was unable to send it. 16137. This was a telegram from the “Amerika” to Washington? - Yes. 16138. Now, how do you say it reaches the “Titanic”? - The “Amerika” desire this message to get by the quickest route to Washington, and the quickest route was via the first coast station which is Cape Race; but the “Amerika” was not at that moment in communication with Cape Race; she was, however, in communication with another ship which happened to be the “Titanic,” which would very shortly be within range of Cape Race. 16139. The “Titanic” was in communication or could put herself in communication with Cape Race? - That is it. Therefore she asked the “Titanic” to relay the message. Then all this comes to if you have finished with this, is this, that the “Titanic” was used by the Marconi man on board the “Amerika” as a conduit pipe for sending a message to the hydrographic station in Washington. The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship sees the office wants such message for the sake of steamers. The Commissioner: Yes. The Solicitor-General: It is the centre of information, and this is an ice message, sent by a ship which has seen ice in the Atlantic to the American office which distributes news in the Atlantic. That is the point. I am going to ask the witness what the practice is as to this message being taken advantage of by the ships through which it passes. The Commissioner: I should like to hear it. The Solicitor-General: I am not going to press it, Sir Robert. Sir Robert Finlay: I do not know what his means of knowledge are, of course, but we are not before a jury. 16140. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Let me get one further fact of confirmation in order to make sure whether this message was, in fact, sent through the “Titanic.” Have you communicated with Cape Race and found out where they got the message from? - I have, I have a cable from them this morning. 16141. In your pocket? - Yes. 16142. What do you find from that? - This is what they say in reply to my question of yesterday. 16143. (The Commissioner.) Read your question first? - “Wireless station, Cape Race, Newfoundland. Cable immediately if you received telegram dated 14th April, addressed Hydrographic Office, Washington, from s.s. ‘Amerika,’ via ‘Titanic,’ and say whether direct from ‘Titanic,’ or through other ship. -Expands.” 16144. What is the answer? - Then I sent another one a few minutes afterwards. “Re previous telegram, cable verbatim service entries and text message originating steamship ‘Amerika,’ via ‘Titanic.’ Cape Race addressed Hydrographic, Washington.” 16145. (The Solicitor-General.) Now, what is the answer? Both your telegrams are answered in one document, are they? - Yes, they are. 16146. Let me hear what it is”? - Expands, London, from Cape Race. Received direct from ‘Titanic,’ 14th April, steamship ‘Amerika,’ via ‘Titanic’ ‘Amerika’ passed two large icebergs in 41 deg. 27 min. N., and 5 deg. 8 min. W. on the 14th April.” The Commissioner: Very well; that at present satisfies me that this message did reach the Marconi operator on the “Titanic,” and was read by him and was transmitted to America, and there it stops. The Solicitor-General: There it stops, as your Lordship says. 16147. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Can you give us the time when that reached Cape Race? - No, they do not state the time. 16148. (The Commissioner.) They do state the day? - They do state the day, the 14th of April, and that they received it direct from the “Titanic”; so it may be assumed that it was received immediately. 16149. (The Solicitor-General.) Now, let us get from you what is involved in passing the thing through the “Titanic.” The message as sent from the “Amerika,” as the procčs-verbal of the “Amerika” shows to the “Titanic.” Has it to be read there and written down? - That message is a private message from the Commander of the “Amerika” to the Hydrographic Office, in Washington. It concerns nobody else. 16150. Would you mind answering my question, if it is an intelligible one. I understand from you that it is a message that is sent from the “Amerika” through the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16151. Does that involve its being read by the operator on the “Titanic,” and written down? - Oh, yes, of course. The Commissioner: You say, “Of course.” Are you sure about it? - It must be so, my Lord. 16152. I do not see how there is any “must be” about writing it down? - The operator, in sending a message for retransmission must take it down in the same way that he receives a message for delivery to a passenger on board his ship. 16153. I suppose when the message comes, he knows what has been telegraphed? - Certainly. 16154. And if he knows it he can re-telegraph it without writing it down? - Oh, no, he cannot. 16155. Why not? - Because he does not receive and send at the same time. 16156. But what interval elapses? - He must wait until he has finished receiving the message. 16157. Yes, but the message is only a message of a dozen words? - He would receive that in about a minute. 16158. At the end of the minute he will know what he has received? - Oh, he will not be certain. He must write it down as it goes along. 16159. It would be wiser to write it down, but I do not see the absolute necessity for writing it down if he can remember what has come through, I was going to say the wire, but through the apparatus; if he can remember that, then he has no difficulty, without writing anything down, in telegraphing it on? - We do not allow them to trust to memory. We insist upon them writing it down. 16160. I daresay it is the practice, and is a very wise practice, to write it down. You say it would be the practice for him to write it down, and having written it down then to send it on? - Yes. 16161. (The Solicitor-General.) I do not want to press it either one way or the other, but only to understand it. If the man on the “Titanic” is receiving a message from the “Amerika,” can he at the same time be sending a message to Cape Race? - On the “Titanic” he could not. 16162. We will ask Mr. Bride when he comes, but I think I ought to ask you. With regard to a message of this sort, dealing with ice, passing through the “Titanic,” what is the practice of your operators; what are their instructions; how do they treat it; do they treat it as a message which concerns an intermediate ship? Sir Robert Finlay: I should like to have the instructions themselves. The Solicitor-General: Certainly. I only want to know how it stands. The Commissioner: Never mind, Sir Robert. I have in my mind something which was said just now - I do not know whether you caught it - about this being a private message from the “Amerika.” 16163. (The Solicitor-General.) In ordinary practice - we will ask Mr. Bride about it afterwards - how would it be treated? - In ordinary practice it would be treated as a private message, but the operator, seeing the contents of it, and knowing how important it was to navigation in general and to his ship, would, without any doubt whatever, it is the general practice, communicate its contents to the Commander or to his responsible officer. 16164. (The Commissioner.) When you say “would,” you mean you think he ought to do it? - It is the general practice. 16165. Have you ever been on one of these steamers in the Marconi room? - I have. 16166. How long were you there? - I made a trip to America in 1904. 16167. One trip? - One trip. 16168. Have you been on any other occasion in the room? - Several times between Continental ports and Cherbourg. 16169. I mean as a paid official of the Marconi Company? - Very, very often. 16170. Can you recall any case where you received a private message which you thought would be of interest to the Captain of the ship that you were upon and that you disclosed to the Captain of that ship? - No, Sir, I cannot, not any particular incident. The Solicitor-General: Very well, that is how it stands. Now that is the “Amerika” one. Now have you any records from the “Baltic”? The Commissioner: You do not dispute this, do you, Sir Robert? Sir Robert Finlay: No, my Lord. The Solicitor-General: I am anxious to be perfectly candid about it of course, because these things are important to my friend. The message which this gentleman I understand has proved, which he is able to trace, is not quite the same message as the one which we have hitherto referred to. It may be that there were two messages but in fact the one he has tracked is not exactly the one which the Attorney-General opened from instructions. The Commissioner: Very well. We had better hear it. The Solicitor-General: It is fair for me to tell my learned friend that. Sir Robert Finlay: I am much obliged. 16171. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Just tell us what you have from the “Baltic” please? - Do you want the procčs-verbal first? The Solicitor-General: Yes, I think it is a good plan to take the procčs-verbal first. Sir Robert Finlay: Can you tell me on which page of the notes is the statement of what this message was. 16172. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes. It is opened in general terms by the Attorney-General at the very bottom of page 12 and at the top of page 13. That is the Affidavit on which we opened. You will see that is what the Attorney-General said. (Handing the same to Sir Robert Finlay.) (To the Witness.) What is the procčs-verbal you have from the “Baltic”? - “Sunday, April 14th, 11.55 a.m., sent two to M.G.Y.” That means two messages to the “Titanic.” 16173. That is 11.55 a.m.? - Yes, New York time. 16174. Have you a record in the procčs-verbal an hour later, 12.55, of a message being received from the “Titanic”? - Yes, I have. “12.55 p.m., one from M.G.Y.” 16175. Now are you able to trace the message that is sent by the “Baltic” to the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16176. I think you have it there? - I have it here. “From s.s. ‘Baltic,’ April 14th, to Captain Smith, ‘Titanic,’ sent 11.52 a.m.” You will notice there are three minutes difference. That is unimportant. “Captain Smith, ‘Titanic.’ Have had moderate variable winds and clear fine weather since leaving. Greek steamer ‘Athenai’ reports passing icebergs and large quantities of field ice today in lat. 41ş 51’ N., long. 49ş 52 ‘W. Last night we spoke German oil-tank steamer ‘Deutschland,’ Stettin to Philadelphia, not under control, short of coal, lat. 40° 42’ N. long. 55° 11’ W. Wishes to be reported to New York and other steamers. Wish you and ‘Titanic’ all success. - Commander.” 16177. (The Solicitor-General.) Your Lordship will notice there that that is a new ice-message. It gives the position, 41ş 51’ N., by 49ş 52’ W. I will have it plotted. (To the Witness.) Have you a copy of the reply from the Captain of the “Titanic”? - I have. 16178. Have you the reply there? - Yes: “14th April. ‘Baltic’ Office. Received from ‘Titanic’ 12.55 p.m. To Commander ‘Baltic.’ Thanks for your message and good wishes; had fine weather since leaving. - Smith.” 16179. (The Commissioner.) What is the time of that? - 12.55 p.m. 16180. (The Solicitor-General.) Are those both New York times? - Both New York times. The Solicitor-General: My Lord, I will have it exactly marked. Your Lordship will find, I think, that that is the closest of all. 16181. (Sir Robert Finlay - To the Witness.) Will you let me see that message? - Which? the received or sent? 16182. The sent. - Yes. (Handing the same to the learned Counsel.) The Commissioner: This is not disputed? Sir Robert Finlay: Yes; this is the first we have heard of this message. The Commissioner: Of this particular one, yes; but do you dispute the receipt of it. Sir Robert Finlay: I do not know anything about it; I have not heard of it till this moment. The Commissioner: You see how it stands. A record from the “Baltic’s” procčs-verbal of the despatch of a message, and then the production, as I understand, of the message sent an hour afterwards from the “Titanic” acknowledging the receipt. Sir Robert Finlay: Yes. 16183. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Have you the telegram from the “Titanic” acknowledging the receipt of it? - I have. The Commissioner: Let me see it. (The Witness handed the telegram to the Commissioner.) You had better look at this, Sir Robert. Sir Robert Finlay: Yes, my Lord. (The Witness handed the telegram to the learned Counsel.) The Commissioner: Just tell me if you are satisfied that that telegram refers to the telegram of 11.55 a.m.? Sir Robert Finlay: I see it purports to be sent off at 12.55 p.m. The Commissioner: No, a.m., surely. Sir Robert Finlay: 12.55 p.m., my Lord. The Solicitor-General: After midday it would be p.m. The Commissioner: Of course. 16184. (Sir Robert Finlay - To the Witness.) What time would that be? - New York time. 16185. By the ship’s time that would be two hours later? - Something like that. The Solicitor-General: I have marked the place now, my Lord, as best I can. The Commissioner: The Admiral has been good enough to mark it for me here. The Solicitor-General: As I make it out, it is practically on the southern track very slightly, of course, to the east of the 50th meridian. The Commissioner: Yes, and, if anything, slightly to the north. Sir Robert Finlay: Yes. The Solicitor-General: A shade to the northward, perhaps. Sir Robert Finlay: We had better have the other. The Commissioner: It appears to me to be all in order. Sir Robert Finlay: That also appears to me, I may say at once. The Solicitor-General: Our information about the other message is in an affidavit that has been sworn by the Captain of the “Baltic,” and I am not sure that this gentleman has been able to trace it. Perhaps I had better show your Lordship what the information is. It is in paragraphs 2 and 3 of that document. (Handing the same to the Commissioner.) It does not profess to be quoting textually, your Lordship sees. The Commissioner: Have you seen this, Sir Robert? Sir Robert Finlay: Yes; my friend has just shown it to me. That is the affidavit? The Commissioner: Yes. “The ‘Baltic’ sailed from New York on Thursday, 11th April, for Liverpool, and on Sunday, the 14th April, reports were received by wireless from a number of steamships of having passed ice and bergs in positions varying from 49ş 9’ W. longitude, to 50ş 20’ W. on the outward southern track.” That is nothing so far because it is not connected with the “Titanic.” “These ice reports were in the ordinary course sent out by the operator to all other ships with wireless, including the ‘Titanic.’ The messages were sent off shortly before noon, New York time, on 14th April. Our operator received an acknowledgment from the ‘Titanic’ about 1 p.m. on the same day.” That would be this telegram. The Solicitor-General: It looks like it, my Lord, certainly. The Commissioner: This telegram of 12.55 p.m.? The Solicitor-General: Yes. The Commissioner: I should think it probably refers to the telegram of 11.55 a.m. to the “Titanic,” but it only connects the “Titanic” with one telegram, not with several. The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship sees the affidavit there does not profess to be quoting textually the message. The Commissioner: No, it does not. The Solicitor-General: It is stating it indirectly, and it is possible therefore that he is referring to this message which is now produced. Sir Robert Finlay: I thought there was another message, my Lord, because if your Lordship looks at page 13 the passage my friend was good enough to refer me to, the Attorney-General in answer to your Lordship gives this. Perhaps I had better begin the second column on page 12. It is all connected together. The Solicitor-General: I think you will find he is relying on the affidavit. Sir Robert Finlay: “(The Commissioner.) Yes, it is more than 12 hours before the casualty. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, it would make a difference. The ‘Baltic’ (I have given you the ‘ Caronia,’ and I am dealing now with documents, so that I can be precise) passed on reports of ice by wireless telegraphy to the ‘Titanic’ from 49° 9’ W. to 50° 20’ W.” The Commissioner: That is taken from the affidavit. Sir Robert Finlay: Yes. “(The Commissioner.) When did she pass on those reports? (The Attorney-General.) They were passed on and acknowledged by the ‘Titanic’ at 1 p.m., New York time, on the same day. (The Commissioner.) At 1 p.m.? (The Attorney-General.) Yes, quite roughly, I think it would work out to about 3 p.m. by the ‘Titanic.’” That is the difference between New York time and the ship’s time. “(The Commissioner.) About 3 p.m. by the ‘Titanic’s’ time? (The Attorney-General.) Yes, that is it; and, my Lord, while I am upon that, having given your Lordship 49° 9’ W. longitude to 50ş 20’ W., I ought to have added on the outward southern track.’ That was the message. That is the track to which I called your attention. (The Commissioner.) I want to see if I have got the ‘Baltic’s’ figures right - 49ş 9’ W., 50ş 20’ W? (The Attorney-General.) Yes. (The Commissioner.) I notice that the ice was between those points? (The Attorney-General.) Yes, on the outward southern track. Now if your Lordship would look just below the blue cross marked there, you will see the outward southern track is that line which you see immediately underneath.” The Solicitor-General: I think it is clear the Attorney-General was referring to this very affidavit. The Commissioner: No doubt. The Attorney-General: That is all I had. The Commissioner: If the information sent to the “Titanic” and received by the “Titanic” by the Captain consisted of nothing but this one “Baltic” telegram we have heard read, it would indicate that ice had been seen at a particular spot slightly to the north of the outward southern track. The Solicitor-General: It is “icebergs and a large quantity of field ice today” at that place. The Commissioner: At that spot, yes, whereas, as I understood it previously, the telegrams, in the plural, which were supposed to have been sent on, indicated ice along a considerable line. The Solicitor-General: That is right. The Commissioner: That line being ascertained by reference to a number of telegrams which were supposed to have been sent to the “Titanic,” but which may not have been sent to the “Titanic.” 16186. (The Solicitor-General.) I agree, that seems to be how it stands. (To the Witness.) As I follow, Mr. Turnbull, looking at the procčs-verbal of the “Baltic,” you do not find about this time any other messages about ice sent by the “Baltic” to the “Titanic”? - No. The Solicitor-General: Now we go on to the “Californian.” Sir Robert Finlay: I think what my friend the Solicitor-General says is probably perfectly accurate, but this affidavit, with which the Attorney-General was dealing in opening, is a sort of free translation of that message, which we have not got in extenso. There is nothing in the message about the outward southern track. The message gives the latitude. The Commissioner: Yes, but the affidavit says “reports” - in the plural - “were received from a number of steamships of having passed ice.” That is paragraph 2, and these ice reports were sent out to the “Titanic.” Sir Robert Finlay: Yes. The Commissioner: Now that does not seem accurate. Sir Robert Finlay: It is not accurate, my Lord; it is a very free translation. The Solicitor-General: The American evidence shows that the Captain of the “Baltic” is right in saying that he received more messages than one. The Commissioner: That is no doubt right. I do not doubt that at all. That is his affidavit, but that they were sent on to the “Titanic” in the sense of being received by the “Titanic,” does not seem to be accurate. Sir Robert Finlay: I think the inaccuracy is in the second paragraph as to what reports were sent to the “Titanic”; we now know what the message to the “Titanic” was it gives the particular latitude. The Commissioner: It is only that one message indicating ice at a particular spot. Sir Robert Finlay: Exactly. The Solicitor-General: That is right. I think we shall find when Mr. Bride gives evidence that he will say he heard another message being sent to the “Baltic”, he overheard it. I have his evidence in America before me. The Commissioner: From the “Titanic”? The Solicitor-General: Yes. The Commissioner: I will wait for that. 16187. (The Solicitor-General.) I think you will find that is what he will say, a message was being sent from another ship to the “Baltic” and he overheard it. (To the Witness.) Now we will go on to the next one, the “Californian.” Here again we have evidence in the shorthand note, the evidence is the evidence of the operator Evans, and it is to be found at page 201. He says that he was sending to the “Antillian,” and that he was told by the “Titanic” operator that the “Titanic” operator had overheard it. (To the Witness.) Have you got the procčs-verbal there showing he was sending to the “Antillian” ? - Yes. 16188. What is the entry? - The entry is under the 14th April, “5.35 p.m. in New York time, sent M.S.G. to M.J.L.,” M.J.L. is the “Antillian.” 16189. What is the time? - 5.35 p.m. in New York time. 16190. That would be about 7.30 ship’s time? - I should say so. 16191. That is what he says. You have the procčs-verbal before you? - Yes. 16192. Can you tell me whether you have an entry in the procčs-verbal immediately before at 5.20 showing that the “Californian” was in communication with the “Titanic”? - Yes. “5.20 p.m. New York time, exchanged Trs M.G.Y. nil.” 16193. What is “Tr”? - “Tr” is the telegram which is exchanged between two ships when they first enter into contact to announce to each other what telegraphic traffic they have for each other. 16194. (The Commissioner.) What does that mean? - What telegrams they have. 16195. (The Solicitor-General.) Nowadays they send messages like they do from two offices. When you find in the procčs-verbal the entry that you exchanged Trs. with a ship, does that indicate that the ship and your own ship are in communication? - Certainly. 16196. Now have the message that was sent to the “Antillian” at 5.35? - I have it here. 16197. Just read it out? - “‘Californian’ Office. Sent 5.35 p.m., 14th April. by C. F. Evans” - that is the operator - “addressed to Captain ‘Antillian,’ 6.30 p.m. apparent ship’s time; lat. 42ş 3’ N., long. 49ş 9’ W. Three large bergs five miles to southward of us. Regards. - Signed Lord” 16198. My Lord, that corresponds with the answer given at Question 8943, on page 201. Sir Robert Finlay: Not textually. He read it out, “Apparent ship’s time.” The Solicitor-General: My strong recollection is that that is what the witness said. Sir Robert Finlay: I am only reading from the print of the evidence. 16199. (The Attorney-General.) It is “A.T.S.,” which is “Apparent time ship.” The Witness: I should have read it. “A.T.S.” 16200. That is “apparent time ship”? - Yes. The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship will see that is the ordinary abbreviation, A.T.S. Sir Robert Finlay: Be it so. There is a semi-colon put in the print, which obscures the meaning. The Commissioner: The semi-colon ought to come after “ship.” Sir Robert Finlay: Yes, if it comes at all. 16201. (The Solicitor-General.) I daresay your Lordship will remember, when Mr. Evans was in the box, he explained that when he said 6.30 apparent ship’s time, that did not indicate that the message was being sent at that time, but it indicated that icebergs had been seen at that time. That is the “Antillian.” Now let us turn to the “Mesaba”; that is the Atlantic Transport Line? - Yes. Sir Robert Finlay: This, we say, we did not receive. The Commissioner: The “Californian” you did receive? Sir Robert Finlay: Yes. 16202. (The Solicitor-General.) Was she east-bound or west-bound? - Bound to Europe. 16203. (The Commissioner.) With reference to what was said, the Marconi operator overheard the “Californian”; whether they received it upon the bridge, I do not know. 16204. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes. Do not answer until you are sure. You have your records there? - Yes. 16205. She was in advance of the “Titanic”; she was nearer America than the “Titanic”? - Yes. The Commissioner: Are you disputing the receipt by the Captain of the “Titanic” of the “Californian’s” message? Sir Robert Finlay: Of the “Californian’s” message to the “Antillian”? The Commissioner: Yes, and your becoming acquainted with it? Sir Robert Finlay: I think Mr. Bride will say that he did take that to the bridge. The Commissioner: There is nothing as far as I know in writing to show that this message, the “Californian’s” message, was received by Captain Smith. Sir Robert Finlay: No. The Commissioner: There is nothing in writing. Sir Robert Finlay: No, my Lord. The Commissioner: If Mr. Bride says so, it will be his statement. Sir Robert Finlay: I understand my friends are going to call him presently, and I understand he will say that, but I am not able to say at the present moment. 16206. (The Solicitor-General.) You say the “Mesaba” was west-bound and in advance of the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16207. Now have you got your procčs-verbal, and will you do the thing in the same way? - Under date of “Sunday, April 14th, 7.50 p.m. New York time, exchanged Trs. s.s. ‘Titanic bound West. Sent ice report, condition of communication good.” 16208. (The Solicitor-General.) I should like your Lordship to see that entry, because that is the critical one. (To the Witness.) Have you marked it? - Yes, there is a red cross opposite it. (Passing up the document.) 16209. I think you told me the entry “Exchanged Trs.” means “Exchanged time rushes.” It means the two ships have got into communication? - Yes, they have just got into communication. 16210. (The Commissioner.) What does “G” mean, “Condition G”? - Good. 16211. What was good? - Communication. 16212. At 7.50. Does this word, which is contracted, mean examined or what? - “Exchanged.” 16213. And then there is something which I cannot read? - “Trs.” 16214. What are those? - Those are what we call “Time rushes.” 16215. And what are time rushes? - They are the messages which each ship exchanges with another as soon as it enters into communication with that ship to inform each other of the telegrams which one has for the other, and to check their times. 16216. “Time rushes, s.s. ‘Titanic,’ bound west, sent ice reports. - M.G.Y.” Those are the letters? - Those are the call letters. 16217. For the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16218. “Sent ice report.” Now is there anything in this procčs-verbal to show what ice report was sent? 16219. (The Solicitor-General.) My Lord, I am going to do that now; I am dealing with it in exactly the same order as the others. (To the Witness.) Now have you got the message at 7.50 p.m., which is recorded as being sent from the “Mesaba” to the “Titanic”? - I have. 16220. Just read out what you have got on that piece of paper, and then you must hand it up. Sir Robert will want to see it? - “‘Mesaba’ office, 14th April, 1912. Office sent to, M.G.Y.” 16221. Does that mean to the “Titanic”? - That means “Titanic.” “Time sent, 7.50 p.m. By whom sent, S.H.A.” Those are the initials of the operator. “From ‘Mesaba’ to ‘Titanic’ and all east-bound ships. Ice report in latitude 42 N. to 41° 25’ N., longitude 49 W. to longitude 50° 30’ W. Saw much heavy pack ice, and great number large icebergs. Also field ice. Weather good, clear.” 16222. Have you any record on that same piece of paper as to whether there was any reply? - At the bottom of the form there appears this entry by the operator. Sir Robert Finlay: Have you got the reply? 16223. (The Solicitor-General.) It is on the same piece of paper I want you to see? - This reply was not from the Captain; this reply was from the operator of the “Titanic.” “Reply received, thanks.” 16224. Is there anything added? - There is another remark added, yes. 16225. That is what I want? - “Reply received. Thanks. Sent this to about ten other ships as well; names in P.V.” 16226. What does “P.V.” stand for? - It means his procčs-verbal. 16227. Is that initialled? - It is initialled. 16228. What are the initials? - “S.H.A.” 16229. That is the same initials as those you had before? - Yes. 16230. Who is the gentleman? - His name is Adams, the operator of the “Mesaba.” 16231. Now will you hand that up to my Lord? - Yes (Handing up the same.). The Commissioner: Where did you get this information. You had not it when the case was opened, I suppose? The Solicitor-General: I can show your Lordship exactly the moment when we got it. The Commissioner: It does not matter. The Solicitor-General: I have that exactly here. The Commissioner: This message was not referred to in the opening at all. The Solicitor-General: If your Lordship will look, this is a print of the letter we received from the Marconi Company on the 7th May (Handing same.) If your Lordship will look at that letter the bottom paragraph but one - The Commissioner: I see it. The Solicitor-General: You will see it is referred to there. The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will remember I opened only two - the “Caronia” and the “Baltic” - and I said those were the only ones I was then going to refer to. The Solicitor-General: They were all we had. These gentlemen have been looking at their records since. Sir Robert Finlay: This is the 7th of May. I think my friend opened on the 2nd or the 3rd. The Solicitor-General: That is right. The Attorney-General: I got the information afterwards. Sir Robert Finlay: The letter is dated in London the 7th of May. The Solicitor-General: I am anxious your Lordship should have before you the observation that it seems might fairly be made on that document. Your Lordship sees unlike the others, the record of the reply is on the same piece of paper as the record of the message sent. It is all in one handwriting, and I understand that to be the handwriting of the operator on the “Mesaba.” The Commissioner: Yes. 16232. (The Solicitor-General.) And it has the air of having been written all at one time - that is so, is it not, Mr. Turnbull? The Witness: Yes. 16233. (The Commissioner.) Have you got there the procčs-verbal? The Witness: I have (Handing up the same.). Sir Robert Finlay: May I see the document containing the message? The Commissioner: Yes (The same was handed to the learned Counsel.). 16234. Does the operator record the answers that he gets in his procčs-verbal? - Not always. 16235. He has not done it in this case? - No, he has not done it in many cases. It is very seldom it is recorded unless it is not regarded as sent - unless it is received. 16236. Unless it is acknowledged? - Unless it is acknowledged, yes. The Attorney-General: Of course, we will take steps to get Mr. Adams. The Commissioner: I am very anxious to know exactly what knowledge can be traced to Captain Smith. The Attorney-General: Yes. The Commissioner: That is my anxiety. The Attorney-General: Although at one time it did not look necessary, it is now, and so far as Mr. Adams can throw any light upon it we will take care to have him here. That is the operator “S. H. A.” The Solicitor-General: I was anxious to point out - it is fair to do so - what is odd about this, because there is something odd about it. The thing that is odd about it is that it speaks of being sent to the “Titanic” and to all east-bound ships. Of course, the “Titanic” is west-bound. The Commissioner: Yes. The Solicitor-General: And the reply which is noted at the bottom is not in terms noted as received from the “Titanic,” as distinguished from being received from any other of the ships. That is what your Lordship ought to have before you. The Commissioner: Yes. The Solicitor-General: You see what I mean. The Commissioner: Oh, quite. There is nothing to identify the reply with the “Titanic.” The Solicitor-General: There is something, but there is not anything on the face of that entry. I just wanted to call attention to what it is. On the other hand, your Lordship will see on this piece of paper, “Office sent to,” and the space at the time is entered “M.G.Y.” The Commissioner: That is the “Titanic.” 16237. (The Solicitor-General.) That is the “Titanic,” and the time sent is 7.50. The procčs-verbal shows it was the “Titanic” he was in communication with at 7.50, and that he had exchanged what he calls Trs. with the “Titanic.” (To the Witness.) Now have you also got another document which shows a record of the “Mesaba” sending messages to the east-bound ships? - Yes, I have here. 16238. (The Solicitor-General.) That can be contrasted with it, your Lordship sees. Just hand it up to my Lord and he will see the difference. (The document was handed to the Commissioner.) Is it in the same form as far as paper goes? - Yes, but it is not in red ink. No, it is not in red ink; and if your Lordship will contrast the entry of “time by the clock” and the entry of “office sent to,” you will see that the red ink one which contains the record, “Reply received thanks,” is the “Titanic,” and the other one is for different times and different addresses. That is how the document stands. The Commissioner: The person who wrote these intended this “Reply received, thanks” to apply to the “Titanic.” The Solicitor-General: I submit that that is the fair inference from the document. The Commissioner: Oh, yes. The Solicitor-General: Now would your Lordship be kind enough to let me see that. The Commissioner: Yes (The same was handed to the Solicitor-General). 16239. (The Solicitor-General.) This second document, the last one, in the space for “Office sent to,” gives a series of initials in pencil? - Yes. 16240. Are those the ships that were then east-bound? - Yes. 16241. I think you have checked some of them to see? - Yes; we have not found 10; he mentions 10. He says about 10 in the footnote. 16242. I think if you listen you will see that I am not asking about the document which says about 10, I am talking about the last document you handed up, which contains in the space “Office sent to” some initials. Are those the initials of east-bound ships? - Those are. 16243. (The Commissioner.) Five of them? - Yes. 16244. (The Solicitor-General.) And opposite each is there in the next column an entry of the time? - Yes. The Solicitor-General: Ranging from something like 2 o’clock to later in the afternoon, I think, my Lord. The Commissioner: 2.32 to 9.35. 16245. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Now the 7.50, which is the time he has entered for the “Titanic,” is in between those times, you see? - Yes. 16246. I think you have checked by the procčs-verbal of the “Mesaba,” and found in different places in the procčs-verbal messages sent to east-bound ships recorded? - Yes. The Solicitor-General: That is as it stands on the documents, my Lord. Sir Robert Finlay: May I see that? 16247. (The Commissioner.) Yes (The same is handed.) I am not sure how this operation takes place. When you send a message to a ship, by what process do you secure the delivery of the message to the ship you are delivering the message to? You do not know where the ship is? - You exchange time rushes. Each station knows what the other has for it, and you cannot practically exchange a time rush until you are within speaking-range of each other. 16248. I see opposite to each one of those five ships that were eastward bound the time recorded? - Yes. 16249. Is that the time when the time rushes were exchanged between the “Mesaba’ and that particular ship? - The time rushes are always the first, so that the ice report must have been subsequent. 16250. But it would be very soon? - Very soon almost immediately after. 16251. Now I understand it. You get into communication or you find that you are in communication by these time rushes? - Yes. 16252. And then having found that out you can send any message you desire to send? - Yes, provided, of course, that the range does not increase; there is a certain amount of time in which you can exchange messages. 16253. If it does not increase, but the two ships remain in range, then you can send a message? - Yes. 16254. If time rushes have been exchanged with a ship, say with the “Titanic,” does that show that communication is established? - Yes. 16255. I understand following on the exchange of time rushes messages may be sent from one to the other? - Yes. The Commissioner: Sir Robert, this appears to me to be a very important telegram, the “Mesaba,” because it seems to me to justify the allegations made by the Solicitor-General yesterday that the “Titanic” must have known the presence of the ice in what was called the parallelogram. Is not that so? The Solicitor-General: Yes, I call it the oblong. Sir Robert Finlay: It goes to this, of course, that the operator on board the “Titanic” who received this message would know of that? The Commissioner: Yes. The Solicitor-General: One or other of them. Sir Robert Finlay: I think it must have been Phillips, and Phillips is unfortunately lost. The Solicitor-General: Yes. The Commissioner: Phillips is not here. Sir Robert Finlay: No, he was lost, but of course it does not carry it a step further towards showing that the Captain or any of the officers knew. The Commissioner: It would be a very extraordinary thing, although of course it is possible, if the man in the Marconi room did not communicate a telegram of this kind to the Captain. Sir Robert Finlay: Your Lordship will recollect the answer that man in the Marconi room sent to the Marconi operator on board the “Californian” at that very time. When the message was sent by the “Californian” about ice, he sent back a message saying that he was busy with Cape Race and did not want to be bothered, in effect. The Solicitor-General: I do not think quite so. The message he sent back was that he had already heard about the ice. Sir Robert Finlay: No, no; that is another message altogether. The Solicitor-General: Let us see. Sir Robert Finlay: I am going to show that to you presently. The Attorney-General: There is nothing like doing it at once. Sir Robert Finlay: I will read the passage. Your Lordship will find it on page 202, the second column. The Solicitor-General: The question I am referring to is question 8972 - “What did the ‘Titanic’ say to you when you offered your ice report? - (A.) He said “It is all right, I heard you sending it to the ‘Antillian,’ and I have got it.” I think I am quite accurate. Sir Robert Finlay: That is one answer. The Solicitor-General: That is the important answer. Sir Robert Finlay: That is another part altogether. What I am referring to is in the second column of page 202, Question 8986. If your Lordship will allow me, I will read a few questions and answers to make it clear: “(The Commissioner.) What time was this - about what time? - (A.) Five minutes to eleven. (The Solicitor-General.) Ship’s time? - (A.) Yes (Q.) What did the Captain say when you said that? - (A.) He said, ‘You had better advise the ‘Titanic’ we are stopped, and surrounded by ice.’ (Q.) Did you call up the ‘Titanic’? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Can you give me the time? - (A.) It was 9.5 p.m. (Q.) New York time? - (A.) Yes, 11 o’clock ship’s time. (Q.) What did you say? - (A.) I said, ‘We are stopped, and surrounded by ice.’ (Q.) Did you get an answer from the ‘Titanic’? - (A.) They said, ‘Keep out.’ (Q.) Just explain to us, will you, what that means? - (A.) Well, Sir, he was working to Cape Race at the time. Cape Race was sending messages to him, and when I started to send he could not hear what Cape Race was sending. (Q.) Does that mean that you would send louder than Cape Race to him? - (A.) Yes; and he did not want me to interfere. (Q.) That would interrupt his conversation with Cape Race? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) So that he asked you to ‘Keep out’? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) In ordinary Marconi practice is that a common thing to be asked? - (A.) Yes. And you do not take it as an insult or anything like that. (The Commissioner.) What did you say? (The Solicitor-General.) ‘You do not take it as an insult or anything like that.’ (To the Witness.) Do I understand rightly then that a Marconi operator, like other people, can only clearly hear one thing at a time? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Have you any means of knowing - do you judge that he had heard your message about ice? When you say you sent this message and he said ‘Keep out,’ did he say that after he had got your message? - (A.) The very minute I stopped sending. (The Commissioner.) You cannot tell, I suppose, whether he heard what you said? - (A.) He must have heard it, my Lord, but I do not know whether he took it down.” The Commissioner: That is, whether the Marconi man took it down? Sir Robert Finlay: Yes. “9003 (Q.) Would he hear what you said, or would he merely hear that you were speaking? You see, as I understand, he was getting messages from two points - from Cape Race and from you. He could not hear both, I suppose, at the same time? - (A.) No, my Lord. (Q.) And he may not have heard what you said, though he may have known that you were trying to speak to him. I do not know, you know; I am only asking? - (A.) Well, my Lord, my signal would be much stronger than Cape Race’s.” Then there are a few questions and answers which I will read if desired. I was going on to Question 9014: “(Q.) And then you gave him this message, spelt it out, that you were stopped in ice; and then he replies to you, ‘Keep out.’ How do you know he was talking to Cape Race? - (A.) I heard him beforehand. (Q.) You could hear him? - (A.) Beforehand, and directly after that. (The Commissioner.) What was it you heard? - (A.) Before that, my Lord? (Q.) No. What was it that you heard which conveyed to you that he was in communication with Cape Race? - (A.) Directly afterwards he called upon Cape Race - a few seconds after. (Q.) After he had said to you, ‘Keep out’? - (A.) Yes, my Lord. (The Solicitor-General.) Could you overhear what he was saying to Cape Race? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) What was it he said? - (A.) He said, ‘Sorry, please repeat, jammed.’ (Q.) That means that somebody else had interrupted? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) After that did you hear him continuing to send messages? - (A.) Right up till I turned in” - that was 11.30 “(Q.) It was not your business, and I have no doubt you did not listen in detail to what they were, but could you tell, as a matter of fact, whether they were private messages? - (A.) Yes, all private messages. You can tell by the prefix. (The Commissioner.) That means messages for the passengers. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, business and private messages for the passengers. (To the Witness.) You can tell that by what you call the prefix, the sound that is sent first of all? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) And that continued, you say, till you turned in? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) When was it that you turned in? - (A.) Eleven-thirty p.m., ship’s time. (Q.) You had been at work since 7 o’clock in the morning, except intervals for meals? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Was it your regular course to turn in about that time? - (A.) As a rule. It all depends where we are.” I do not think I need read further. 16256. (The Solicitor-General.) That is quite right. Just that we may see the bearing of that, that message that Sir Robert Finlay has been referring to is a message sent at 9.5 p.m., New York time. That is what we have been told? - Yes. 16257. What is the time of the “Mesaba’s” message, New York time, on the “Titanic,” 7.50? - Yes. Sir Robert Finlay: I am told it is 2 hours and 10 minutes. The Solicitor-General: I have taken the corresponding times. I want to compare like with like - 9.5 p.m., New York time, I am comparing with 7.50 p.m., New York time. Sir Robert Finlay: Oh, yes, I beg your pardon. I thought you were giving the equivalent of ship’s time. The Solicitor-General: The “Mesaba” message is sent at 7.50, New York time. The message you were referring to, which was interrupted, is 9.5. Sir Robert Finlay: I beg your pardon. 16258. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) This request to “stand out” or “keep out,” just explain that to us? - That is given by an operator on a ship who is working with another ship, or another coast station, and is jammed by someone else, he is simply told to stop it, that is all, just in the same way as if anyone interrupts you when you telephone, you ask him to “ring off” or “keep off.” The Solicitor-General: There might be some general matters at a later stage we should want from this gentleman, but it appeared to us that it would be well to ask Mr. Bride now to come and give evidence, that we may follow this matter up. The Commissioner: I think that is convenient, Sir Robert? Sir Robert Finlay: Certainly, my Lord. Then the cross-examination of this witness will be postponed. The Solicitor-General: That is as you please. On this point I should have thought you would deal with him now. The Attorney-General: We ought to have it now. Sir Robert Finlay: Very well. Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY. 16259. With regard to the “Amerika,” I will take them in the order in which you have dealt with them - I understood you to tell us this yesterday. You see the letters which are printed M.G.V. on the message from the “Amerika”? - Yes. 16260. I understood you to say that that was a coast station of yours? - The “Amerika”? 16261. No, the M.G.V. I will refer you to your answer, if you like. It is 16078 on the very last page of the proceedings. This is the Solicitor-General speaking to you. “I will just read it, and then I am going to ask you why you say it is sent through the ‘Titanic.’ ‘No. 110, ‘Amerika’ Office, 14th April, 1912. Prefix M.S.G.’ That is Master Navigation Message. ‘Service instructions: via Cape Race. Office sent to M.G.V.’ What does that mean”? - That should have been “M.G.Y.” 16262. Now I am going to read your answer. “Those are the call letters for one of our ship stations”? - Yes. 16263. You mean M.G.V. meant one of your ship stations? - No; I do not understand how that mistake has arisen - M.G.Y.. 16264. You said distinctly - it agrees with the recollection of those who heard you - “Office sent to, M.G.V.” What does that mean? And you say, “Those are the call letters for one of our ship stations”? - M.G.V. are the call letters of one of our ship stations, the “Monmouth”; but it should not have been “M.G.V.,” it should have been “M.G.Y.” 16265. “M.G.Y.”? - Yes, “Titanic.” That is a mistake in the print. 16266. And “M.G.V.” was the name of another ship altogether? - Yes. 16267. Very good. You have shown us the original, and it is “M.G.Y.”? - “M.G.Y.” Sir Robert Finlay: Very good. 16268. (The Solicitor-General.) That means the “Titanic”? - That is the “Titanic.” 16269. (Sir Robert Finlay.) “M.G.Y.” is the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16270. (The Commissioner.) When you were asked “What does that mean?” your answer ought to have been “The letters mean the ‘Titanic.’” Is that so? - That is so. 16271. (Sir Robert Finlay.) This message is sent out at 11.45 a.m.? - Yes. 16272. What time would that be? - That is New York time. 16273. To the “Titanic” there would be I am told two hours and ten minutes difference where she was? - I am not certain about that. 16274. Two hours or something over? - About that I should say. 16275. That would make it nearly 2 p.m.? - Ship’s time, yes. 16276. Roughly - I am not tying you to a minute or two, but it would be roughly 2 p.m. ship’s time when this reached the “Titanic”? - I should say so. 16277. This was sent to the “Titanic,” I think your expression was - I will read what I took down at the time - “This message was a private message from the Commander of the ‘Amerika’ to the Hydrographic Office. It concerned no one else.” That is right? - That is right. 16278. And the “Titanic” was being used simply for transmission on to Cape Race? - Yes. 16279. Being nearer to Cape Race than the “Amerika”? - Yes. 16280. The “Amerika” not being as you infer within range of Cape Race? - That is it. 16281. Whether that message was shown to any of the officers of the “Titanic” depends entirely upon the action of the Marconi operator? - It does. 16282. The Marconi operator, I think you have told us, is your servant? - He is. 16283. Paid by you, I think? - Yes. 16284. And under your orders? - Yes. The Commissioner: Are there any means of ascertaining what Marconi operator was on duty at the time when this message would be received by the “Titanic.” Sir Robert Finlay: I think Mr. Bride may be able to tell us that, my Lord. I am not at the moment able to say whether it was Bride or Phillips. There were only the two. The Commissioner: Is Bride here? The Attorney-General: Yes, he is going to be called. The Commissioner: I should like to know because I could follow it so much more easily. I should like to hear from him now if he can tell us which of the two would be on duty at that time. Sir Robert Finlay: Is Bride here? Mr. Bride: Yes. (The Witness withdrew.) HAROLD BRIDE, Sworn. Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY. 16285. Only one question at this time. About 2 p.m. on Sunday, the 14th April, who was on duty at the Marconi office on board the “Titanic”? - Mr. Phillips. The Commissioner: That is enough. 16286. (Sir Robert Finlay - To the Witness.) 2 p.m. ship’s time, you understand that? - Yes, ship’s time. (The Witness withdrew.) GEORGE ELLIOTT TURNBULL, Recalled. Further examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY. 16287. Now with regard to the “Mesaba,” can you give us the ship’s time when that message, 7.50 New York time, would reach the “Titanic” in the ordinary course? The Commissioner: Now we are on the “Mesaba.” 16288. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Yes, my Lord. (To the Witness.) It would be about 10 o’clock would it not, ship’s time? - I should say so, about 10 o’clock. 16289. About 10 o’clock? - Yes; I have not made all those calculations. 16290. Not exact. I am told it is somewhere about that? - Yes. Sir Robert Finlay: Your Lordship will remember there is one change of watch at 10 o’clock. The Commissioner: Yes. 16291. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Now, have you got here, or can you get for us, the messages which passed - have you got from Cape Race the messages which passed between the “Titanic” and Cape Race between 8.30, say when the “Titanic” got into touch with Cape Race, and the time the collision took place? - I have called for all those messages and they are on their way to England, but they have not arrived yet. 16292. When will they arrive? - I expect them in three or four days. 16293. We are speaking of ship’s time, you understand. I mean all the messages that passed between the “Titanic” and Cape Race by your apparatus between 8.30 ship’s time when the “Titanic” got into communication with Cape Race, and the happening of the collision? - Yes, I have asked for the whole lot. 16294. We want them all, if you please. - Yes, I have asked for them all. 16295. Have you ascertained whether there were many? - I do not know exactly how many there were. I have only ascertained from ships that heard the “Titanic” speak to Cape Race that there was a great deal of traffic. The Commissioner: You do not speak loud enough for me to hear you at all well. Sir Robert Finlay: He said he had only ascertained from ships that overheard what was passing, that there was a great deal of traffic between the “Titanic” and Cape Race. The Commissioner: Very well. 16296. (Sir Robert Finlay.) That is between the hours I have mentioned? - Yes. 16297. Would those be trade messages or private messages, or both? - They would be service messages and private messages. One of them will be the message that the “Amerika” sent, which is a service message. 16298. (The Solicitor-General.) You call it a service message? - Yes. 16299. (Sir Robert Finlay.) That, of course, could not be sent on to Cape Race until after 8.30 p.m., when the “Titanic” had got in touch with Cape Race - the “Amerika” message? - No, that would not be sent until she got in touch. 16300. It could not be sent? - No. 16301. Your Company is paid for all these trade and private messages, I suppose? - Yes. 16302. And the operator was properly attending to them? - Yes. 16303. And as soon as he got in touch with Cape Race he was continuously engaged, according to what I read just now in communication with Cape Race? - Yes. 16304. On those trade and private messages? - Yes. 16305. Which, of course, are paid for? - Yes. 16306. Now, you have not got the reply that is said to have been received from the “Titanic”; I mean you have only got a note by Mr. Adams? - Yes. 16307. Mr. Adams, I suppose, we can see afterwards? - Oh, yes. 16308. He is available as a witness? - Well, he is on the “Mesaba” now. The Attorney-General: We will take steps. I have said already - I do not know whether you caught it - after the point was made and explained by my friend, the Solicitor-General, that we would take immediate steps to get Mr. Adams here as soon as he returns. He is on the voyage. 16309. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Very good. (To the Witness.) In some cases I see your roll of documents shows the terms of the reply received. For instance, take the “La Touraine” message? - Yes. 16310. There is the reply of Captain Smith: “Thanks for your message and information. My position 7 p.m.,” - so-and-so. “Had fine weather. Compliments. - Smith”? - Yes. 16311. You have not got any reply of that kind from the operator on board the “Titanic” with regard to this “Mesaba” message? - No, we would simply send “O.K.R.D.,” which means, Had he got the message? 16312. What does “R.D.” mean? - It is short for “Received.” 16313. The note Mr. Adams has made is “Received, thanks”? - Yes, he would send “R.D.T.K.S.,” which is the usual abbreviation for “Received, thanks.” 16314. That would be a message simply from the operator? - Yes, simply his acknowledgment. 16315. One other question with regard to the “Titanic’s” communications with Cape Race: Was the “Titanic” likely to be receiving a number of messages from other ships for transmission to Cape Race? - That is quite possible. 16316. Is it probable? - It is also probable. 16317. The “Titanic” by 8.30 p.m. ship’s time would be in communication with Cape Race? - Yes. 16318. And there would be a great many other ships not in communication with Cape Race that might want to transmit? - That is it. 16319. And they would do it through the “Titanic”? - Yes, if the “Titanic” had the time to do it. 16320. That would keep the Marconi operators on the “Titanic” pretty busy? - Yes. 16321. (The Solicitor-General.) I handed up to your Lordship a print of the letter of 7th May. Would your Lordship kindly look at the last page - the outside page. The bottom communication on the last page is, or professes to be, a copy of a Marconi message. Now just above that your Lordship will see in the print “This sent on to M.G.V.” (To the Witness.) Is that a misprint? - It is a misprint. 16322. It ought, I understand, to be “M.G.Y.”? - That is so. The Solicitor-General: That is where the mistake came from, my Lord; it is a mistake in printing, and your Lordship might turn the “V.” into a “Y.” (To the Witness.) You have told us that “M.G.Y.” means the “Titanic”? - Yes. Sir Robert Finlay: I daresay the Board of Trade will let us have copies of all these documents. The Attorney-General: Certainly. Sir Robert Finlay: And the procčs-verbal, of course. The Attorney-General: Whatever we have I shall not part with those yet; perhaps Mr. Bride may want them. That is all your Lordship wants to put to this witness at present. The Commissioner: There are no other questions I want to put to him. The Attorney-General: We shall recall Mr. Turnbull later, to go into some other matters. (The Witness withdrew.) HAROLD BRIDE, Recalled. Further examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL. 16323. You have been sworn. In June, 1911, you had obtained your certificate of proficiency in radio-telegraphy from the Postmaster-General? - Yes. 16324. And later on you were appointed by the Marconi Company to serve as assistant wireless operator on the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16325. When did you go on board the “Titanic”? - I joined the “Titanic” in Belfast. 16326. When? Was that in the beginning of April? - In the beginning of April. 16327. Was Mr. Phillips the senior operator? - Yes. 16328. Did you find him there when you went there? - Yes. 16329. Did he and you go through tests with several wireless stations? - Yes. 16330. That was while the “Titanic” was on her trial test? - Yes. 16331. For wireless? During the voyage from Belfast to Southampton? - During the voyage from Belfast to Southampton, yes. 16332. Only one general question: Did you find the apparatus was in good working order? - Perfect. 16333. First of all, will you tell us how were your duties arranged as regards time with Mr. Phillips? When did you go on watch? How long did you remain on duty? What were your hours? - Mr. Phillips started the watch at eight o’clock at night, and he remained on watch until 2 o’clock in the morning. 16334. Was that your regular practice? - That was Mr. Phillips’s watch of a nighttime. I kept the watch from 2 o’clock to 8 o’clock in the morning. 16335. That is six hours each on duty? - Yes. 16336. You divided up the time from 8 o’clock at night until 8 o’clock in the morning in that way? - Yes. 16337. What did you do with regard to day duty - the same? - During the day we relieved each other to suit each other’s convenience. 16338. No regular time at all? - No, but a constant watch was kept. 16339. (The Commissioner.) You mean that there was always one of you there? - Yes. 16340. (The Attorney-General.) Will you just tell us - for the present I am only going to ask you this simply - Is there a Marconi room on board the vessel on which you have to operate? - Yes. 16341. And there was on the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16342. (The Attorney-General.) No doubt your Lordship saw the room on the “Olympic.” (To the Witness.) That is quite close to the bridge, is it not? - Quite close to the bridge. 16343. (The Commissioner.) I suppose it is in the same position as the Marconi room on the “Olympic”? - I believe there is a difference. 16344. In the position? - In the exact position of the cabin. 16345. Is it in practically the same place? - It is in practically the same place. 16346. (The Attorney-General.) Has your Lordship the plan of the “Titanic” - do you see where it is? It is just forward of what is marked as the elevator gear. (To the Witness.) I want to know a little about this. There are, I see, three rooms; there is what is called the silent room, which is, I suppose, the room in which you work where you receive and transmit? - No, the silent room is the one we use for transmitting. 16347. Then there is another room called the Marconi room. What is that? - That is the room where we sit to receive and send our messages. 16348. Then bedroom? - That is the bedroom. 16349. Is that for both or one of you? - For both. 16350. I am not sure that I understand what you said about the difference between the silent room and the Marconi room. Do you transmit in a different room to the one in which you receive? - The silent room contains the alternator and the motor and the spark gap, and it is made silent so that the noise from the sparks shall not disturb anybody round about there. You can close the sound entirely out, and it is connected through to the operating room, and the key is in the operating room. 16351. What I want to know about this for the moment is, when you speak of the silent room do you mean you only transmit in that room? Your answer to me was that “it is the room in which we transmit messages.” Do you understand? - Yes. 16352. Do you mean that it is the room in which you only transmit messages? - It is the room which contains the transmitting gear. 16353. Do you mean you do only transmit from there? - Yes. 16354. Is the Marconi room then the room in which you would only receive messages? - No. 16355. That is why I want you to tell us. What is that? - The transmitting gear is inside the silent room, and it is connected through by means of wires to the key in the Marconi room which we operate. The receiving apparatus is in the Marconi room. 16356. That is what I wanted. You, I suppose, were in the habit of recording messages, were you, in the ordinary way? - Yes. 16357. While you were on the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16358. I must ask you as a matter of form. There are no records at all that have been preserved of the messages to the “Titanic,” none of the “Titanic” records? - No. 16359. Would you tell us so far as you are able what was the first message you recollect with regard to ice reports? - The first message I recollect on the 14th April was from the “Californian.” 16360. That is the first you recollect? - Yes, and the last. 16361. Is it the only one? - It is the only one I recollect. 16362. That is on the 14th? - Yes. 16363. Just before I ask you about that - that is speaking of the 14th, but had you had any messages before the 14th that you recollect? - No. 16364. Would you tell me what was the message that you recollect receiving on the 14th. Do you recollect the time when you received it? - The time was between five and half-past in the afternoon, ship’s time. It stated that the “Californian” was passing close to large icebergs and gave the latitude and longitude. 16365. (The Attorney-General.) Your Lordship will recollect that is very much what Mr. Evans said at page 201. He says 5.35, and the witness says about 5.30. (To the Witness.) Was that a message to you, or was it merely a message which you overheard? - It was a message intended for me in the first place, but which I overheard afterwards. 16366. I am not quite sure that I understand what you mean by that. Was it a message which was directed to you? - It was not directed. 16367. Were you called up? - It was not directed to me, but I took it down for delivery. 16368. (The Commissioner.) Do you mean by taking it down writing it down? - Yes. 16369. (The Attorney-General.) Do you always write the messages down which you receive? - Yes. 16370. Is that the invariable practice? - Invariable. 16371. Do you also write the messages which you send? - They are generally written for us. 16372. And put before you for the purpose of your transmitting them? - Yes. 16373. What ship was sending the message? - The “Californian.” 16374. For whom was the message intended? - To the best of my recollection it was the “Baltic.” 16375. How would you know that? - By the call letters. 16376. Which would indicate the “Baltic”? - Yes. 16377. Was that the message which you first overheard? - Yes. 16378. What did you do? What I want to know is could you tell whether the “Baltic” was receiving the message? - The “Baltic” did eventually receive the message. 16379. How do you know that? - Because she acknowledged it to the “Californian.” 16380. Did you hear the message from the “Baltic” to the “Californian”? - Yes. 16381. Did you realise from that that it was an ice report? - Yes. 16382. Then during this time did you know that there was any message that the “Californian” had for you? - I knew it was the same message that the “Californian” had for me. 16383. You mean that your letters were called: is that it? Sir Robert Finlay: No. 16384. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) Just let us see what you mean by that. I understood you to tell us that you heard the message between the “Californian’ and the “Baltic.” Is that what you have said? - Yes. 16385. How do you know the message was for you? - Because the “Californian” had called me previously and said she had an ice report for me. 16386. Then you heard what was taking place, and you knew what the report was? - Yes. Sir Robert Finlay: I think that the message was sent to the “Titanic,” but, as I understand the witness, he was busy and did not attend to it at the time. That was a message to the “Titanic.” Then afterwards he heard the same message repeated to the “Baltic.” The Attorney-General: I do not think that is what he said. The Solicitor-General: That is neither his evidence nor is it the fact. The Attorney-General: I have not heard the witness say a word about that, but we will see. It may be right. All I mean is that it is not as I understood what was the witness’s evidence, because he has not said that. Sir Robert Finlay: I understood him to say he did not acknowledge the message when it was sent to the “Titanic,” and he afterwards heard the same message being sent by the “Californian” to the “Baltic.” 16387. (The Attorney-General.) It may be so; we will get it quite clear. It is quite possible that is right. (To the Witness.) Was that right? Did you hear what my learned friend Sir Robert Finlay said just now? - Perfectly correct. 16388. So that although you knew you were called, you had something else to do; you were busy at the time? - Yes. 16389. Then you eventually overheard it? - Yes. 16390. (The Commissioner.) I do not want you to skip over that. What business had you that you were attending to at the moment? - I was attending to another branch of my work. 16391. What branch? - I was writing up the accounts. 16392. Pounds, shillings and pence, you mean? - Yes. 16393. The account book? - Yes. 16394. That is what you were attending to at that particular time? - Yes. 16395. (The Attorney-General.) Did you send any message yourself in answer? - Yes, I acknowledged the receipt of the report. 16396. To whom? - To the “Californian.” 16397. Do you remember what it was you said? - Not the exact words, but it was to the effect that I had overheard him send it and that I had taken it down. The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will remember, if you want the passage where this is dealt with by Evans, it is at page 202, Question 8972: “(Q.) What did the ‘Titanic’ say to you when you offered your ice report? - (A.) He said: ‘It is all right; I heard you sending it to the ‘Antillian,’ and I have got it.” 16398. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Do you remember sending such a message? - It was a message to that effect, but there was no mention made of a ship’s name. 16399. That is what I wanted to know. Do you remember ever having referred to the “Antillian”? - In a case like that you would refer to the ship’s call letters; you would not mention the ship by name. 16400. I suppose the man on the “Californian” would have the corresponding letters? - Yes. 16401. Do you remember referring to the call-letters of a ship called the “Antillian”? - I remember referring to the call-letters of a ship which I understood to be the “Baltic.” 16402. (The Attorney-General.) Whatever it is, whether you recollect the letters or the name of the ship or not, it was a ship with which the “Californian” was in communication - is that right? - Yes. 16403. And whose message you overheard? - Yes. 16404. So far, your recollection is clear? - Yes. I see in America - I am going to read a passage from the evidence you gave in America with regard to the message, which is on April 20th, 1912. The Commissioner: I have not got the American evidence. The Attorney-General: I thought I handed it up. Your Lordship need not be troubled with it; we will get the effect of the evidence from this witness. The Commissioner: That is what I mean. I do not ask for it, but I presume that whenever it is referred to the reference to it will be on the shorthand notes. The Attorney- General: Yes. The Commissioner: For instance, what you are to say at present will be taken down on the shorthand notes. 16405. (The Attorney-General.) Yes. (To the Witness.) I would like you to tell the exact language of that message. If you will follow what I am putting to you, this is your answer: “(Q.) It stated that the ‘Californian’ had passed three large icebergs, and gave their latitude and longitude? - (A.) That they passed three large icebergs, yes.” And then you are asked, “And gave their latitude and longitude. (A.) Yes, she passed very close to them.” And then you were asked whether you recollected the latitude and longitude, and you said you did not. That is the evidence you gave in America? - Yes. 16406. I take it that evidence is right? - That is correct. The Attorney-General: The message which has already been read, which I will just refer to again, which was actually sent, your Lordship will remember, “Three large bergs five miles to southward of us. Regards.” The Commissioner: There is the latitude and longitude. The Attorney-General: Yes, I am going to refer to that; I wanted to get first the actual facts to bring them to his recollection: “Three large bergs five miles to southwards of us. Regards”; but you see how it begins, “6.30 p.m., A.T.S.” which is we know the ship’s time. Then there is the latitude 42.3ş N., and the longitude 49.9ş W. 16407. (The Commissioner.) The message begins “To Captain, Antillian.” The Witness: Yes. The Attorney-General: It is sent off at 5.35. The Commissioner: At 6.30 p.m. those three large bergs were noticed. The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will recollect that the time which is there mentioned is the time at which they are seen and the latitude and longitude are there given. I think it is unnecessary to go further into that. We could show, if it had been necessary, from the procčs-verbal that the “Californian” message was not to the “Baltic,” that they were not in communication with the “Baltic’ at that time at all, and that the message we have got is the message from the Captain of the “Californian” to the “Antillian,” and no doubt is the message which is before you. The Commissioner: Is he mistaken when he says that he thinks the message was to the “Baltic.” 16408. (The Attorney-General.) I think so, according to what we have got. (To the Witness.) You said you thought it was to the “Baltic.” I have called your attention to the only message which we have got, at least of which we know so far, which is a message from the “Californian” to the “Antillian,” sent at about 5.30 and giving this information about the “three large icebergs, five miles to the southward of us.” Is there any reason you have to recollect that it was to the “Baltic”? - May it have been this message to the “Antillian”? - There is no special reason why I should recollect the “Baltic” beyond the fact that it was on my mind from the time I landed in New York, and that was the evidence I gave on the Saturday. 16409. I think I understand what you mean? - At the same time we had many communications and on the Sunday the traffic was very heavy. 16410. (The Commissioner.) You were very busy on the Sunday? - Very busy. 16411. (The Attorney-General.) According to your recollection when you gave the evidence in America you thought it was a communication from the “Californian” intended for the “Baltic”? - Yes. 16412. What did you do when you got that message? - I delivered it to the officer on the bridge. 16413. Do you remember who the officer on the bridge was? - No, I was not acquainted with the officers. 16414. But whatever it was, I understand it was the ice report which you have told us of, and you delivered that at once to the officer on the bridge? - Yes. 16415. Was that what you always did when you got a message - well, what is your objection, Sir Robert? Sir Robert Finlay: My objection is that we know what he did when he heard the message to the “Titanic.” However - 16416. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) What was your practice when you got a message? - If it was for the navigating staff or the Captain we delivered it personally. The Commissioner: You scarcely had a practice on board the “Titanic,” because it was her first voyage. You may have had a practice on some of the other ships. The Attorney-General: He was there for some days, of course. 16417. (The Commissioner.) Yes, he was there for some days. (To the Witness.) This is the only ice message, as far as I have gathered, that you can tell us anything about? - It was our practice if a message - 16418. Never mind about your practice at present. I am asking you, was this the only ice message that you remember being received on board the “Titanic”? - It was the only ice message, but it was not the only message for Captain Smith. The Attorney-General: I did not ask him about a practice as to an ice message, my Lord. 16419. (The Commissioner.) No, but I am thinking about ice messages. (To the Witness.) Did you receive any other message that you can remember that concerned in any way the navigation of the ship? - None that I can recollect. 16420. Then this is the only message you received during the whole of this voyage that could in any way affect the navigation of the ship? - Yes. 16421. And you say you delivered it? - Yes. 16422. Then I do not know what practice you could have about such messages on that ship; you may have had a practice on other ships? - There were messages coming through for Captain Smith all the time, but they did not affect the navigation of the ship. 16423. (The Attorney-General.) I did not think he had said that, nor was he asked, my Lord. I did not think he had said anything to the contrary of that nor had he been asked. I asked what the practice was when he got a message. I agree that the important thing is to know what happened with regard to an ice message as to which there could not be a practice. (To the Witness.) What I wanted to ask you was this. You told us there were a number of messages which came through for Captain Smith; by name, do you mean? - Yes. 16424. Of course, those would be delivered to him personally? - Personally. 16425. (The Commissioner.) Would they be delivered to an officer of the ship, or to the Captain to whom they were addressed? - They were invariably delivered to the Captain. 16426. This was not addressed to the Captain? - No. 16427. And you simply delivered it to an officer on the bridge? - Yes. 16428. (The Attorney-General.) Could you tell us how long it was after you got the message that you delivered it on the bridge? - About two minutes. 16429. Did it strike you as an important message? - Well, those sort of messages are looked upon as important. 16430. So that you would deliver it as soon as you could? - Yes. 16431. All that you would have to do is to take down the message and go from your room on to the bridge to deliver it to the officer? - Yes. 16432. And that is your recollection of what you did? - Yes. The Commissioner: Sir Robert, is there any doubt that this message did come to the knowledge of the officers. Sir Robert Finlay: I think there is no doubt at all, my Lord. The Attorney-General: We need not pursue it. Sir Robert Finlay: No; the point is when. 16433. (The Attorney-General.) One moment. When it came to the notice of the officers of the ship? - This witness says that he gave it two minutes after it was received. (To the Witness.) Were you at this time, that is at the time you received the message, receiving messages from a number of ships? - Yes. 16434. Were those messages which you had to relay to Cape Race? - The majority. 16435. (The Attorney-General.) It is suggested by my learned friend, Sir Robert, your Lordship will recollect, that they were busy on the 14th, and I am to show that he was on the 13th as well receiving messages in this way. (To the Witness.) You would get a number of messages which would come to you which you would then have to relay and transmit to Cape Race? - Yes. 16436. As I understand you, from the time you received that message until the “Titanic” sank, so far as you are concerned, there was no other ice report? - No. 16437. That is right, is it not? - Yes. 16438. That is to say, you received none. Did you have any conversation at all with Mr. Phillips about ice messages? - No. 16439. Nothing passed between you? - Nothing at all. 16440. How long did you continue to receive messages before going away on this day - before going down to your dinner? - To the best of my recollection - The Commissioner: What was the time? 16441. (The Attorney-General.) I know, but I want him to tell us; it was some time in the evening. The Witness: To the best of my recollection I went off watch between 6 and 7. 16442. At what time did you dine as a rule? - Seven o’clock. 16443. Then did you go to your dinner that evening do you remember? - Yes. 16444. About that time? - Yes. 16445. You can recollect that? - Yes. When did you come up again? The Commissioner: You say he can. The Attorney-General: I said he could because he had a pleasant smile about it. The Commissioner: I doubt very much whether he can remember going to his dinner that evening. He knows he had it. 16446. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) I rather gathered from your pleasant recollections that you do remember it? - I do remember it. 16447. (The Commissioner.) Do you remember every dinner you ever had? - Well, not quite. 16448. (The Attorney-General.) But you went down and had your dinner; when was it you came up again? - I could not give you any correct idea of the time. Of course it is very difficult we know; you have not got your records, and we also know what has happened since. What I want you to do is to give us to the best of your ability what you recollect about it. The Commissioner: I do not want any answer unless he does recollect it. The Attorney-General: I agree; but we must try to find out from him. The Commissioner: Do try, but as to the events of this morning, I want to be as sure as I possibly can. The Attorney-General: Your Lordship must know how he recollects it before you can tell what value to attribute to the evidence. The Commissioner: That is why I want to know whether he does recollect at all. The Attorney-General: I quite agree. (To the Witness.) Do you recollect coming up again from your dinner? The Commissioner: He cannot recollect; there is no use his saying to me he can recollect. He may know he did come up. The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will hear what happened afterwards, and you will find that he does recollect. The Commissioner: I can quite imagine that if he met some particular person, he might possibly recollect it; otherwise it is impossible. 16449. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) We may be quite sure about this - that you did not stop down at dinner all that night? - No. 16450. After you had had your dinner, did you have any conversation at all with Mr. Phillips? - Yes, we chatted for a long while. 16451. Where was it you had this chat? - In the Marconi room. 16452. So that you had come up from your dinner to the Marconi room? - Yes. 16453. Do you remember how long it was after you went down to dinner that you had this chat with him in the Marconi room? - Somewhere about 20 minutes to half an hour. 16454. (The Commissioner.) What is this 20 minutes that you remember? - For my dinner - about 20 minutes to half an hour I have for my dinner. 16455. I understand now from you that you recollect not only coming up from your dinner (that you did come up, of course we know), but you recollect 20 minutes’ conversation with Mr. Phillips. Is that what you mean to say? - No, I was asked how long was it after I went down for my dinner before I returned, and I say it was between 20 minutes and half an hour. The Attorney-General: He did not say that he had 20 minutes’ conversation with Mr. Phillips. The question I put to him was that he had some conversation with Mr. Phillips in the Marconi room, and I asked him how long that was after he had gone down to his dinner, so as to get some idea of the time. The Commissioner: You asked him how long the conversation was. 16456. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) It was in answer to that you said 20 minutes to half an hour? - Yes. 16457. In talking to him, was communication established, can you tell me, with Cape Race? - No. 16458. Was it established during that evening? - Yes. 16459. Do you remember about what time? - Just before I turned in. 16460. What time would that be? - Between half-past 8 and 9 o’clock. 16461. Who established that communication? - Mr. Phillips. 16462. When did you relieve Mr. Phillips? - I was due to relieve him at 12 o’clock. 16463. At 12 o’clock that night? - Yes. 16464 Why was that? - He had had a very busy night the night before. 16465. If I understood aright, what you said to my Lord at the beginning your duty would be from 2 o’clock in the morning to 8 o’clock in the morning? - Yes. 16466. But on this particular occasion you relieved him at 12 at night? - At 12. 16467. (The Commissioner.) You came on duty then or intended to come on duty two hours before your ordinary time? - Yes. 16468. (The Attorney-General.) That was, as I understand from what you said just now, because he had had a very busy time; was that it? - Yes. The Commissioner: You said, Mr. Attorney, that he knew that Phillips had got into communication with Cape Race. I want to know how he knew that. 16469. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) How did you know that Phillips had got into communication with Cape Race? - I heard him sending the preliminaries as I was turning in. 16470. What do you call the “preliminaries”? - He was sending to Cape Race when I turned in the time that - 16471. (The Commissioner.) Tell me what he was saying; let me hear it, and how do you know he was sending it. He did not speak it? - I was reading what Mr. Phillips was sending, Sir, from his apparatus. 16472. I want to understand it. Phillips was sending a message by means of the machine? - Yes. 16473. Were you looking at him while he was doing it, or looking at the machine? - No. 16474. How do you know what it was that he was sending? - I could hear the make and break of his key. 16475. Do you mean to say that you listened, and by that means knew what the message was? - Yes. 16476. Why were you listening to the message? - You know, I tell you at once, Mr. Bride, your memory is of such an extraordinarily accurate kind that I wonder whether you are really giving us - I do not mean for a moment to say you are not telling us the truth, but I doubt whether you can remember such things with accuracy; I could not, but my memory is not nearly as good as yours. Do you mean to tell me that at this distance of time or from the Sunday when you landed at New York you recall having listened to a message which did not concern you, and remember what it was? - It was not a message which concerned you? - The message did concern me indirectly. 16477. In what way? - Because I had refused it in the first place when it was offered to me; I did not answer it. 16478. You have not told us that: What was that? - It was the message of the “Californian” - the ice report of the “Californian” which he had offered to me, and which was explained a minute or two ago. 16479. I thought you were talking about Cape Race? - We are talking about Cape Race now. I remember these things, because they constitute my work, and they are big things, as far as I am concerned. It was one of the biggest - 16480. If I were to ask you to give me particulars of all the messages that you had taken on the 13th, could you recollect them now? - No. The Attorney-General: Nor has he been asked. The Commissioner: I asked if he could remember them. The Witness: I am not offering to give you particulars of the messages which were sent on the 14th. 16482. I am talking about this one particular message to Cape Race? - I was to tell you that Mr. Phillips was transmitting the time we had on board our ship, also his distance and bearing from Cape Race, and the number of messages he had for Cape Race, which is the usual thing when establishing communication with a land station. 16483. (The Attorney-General.) See if you can tell us in your own way, without my suggesting it to you, why should you particularly remember getting into communication with Cape Race? - It was just before I went to bed; I was not asleep, and I had nothing else to do but to lie and listen. 16484. Is it important to you to get into communication with Cape Race? - It was that night. 16485. Had you been in communication with Cape Race before on that voyage? - No. 16486. Is it of importance for you when you can get into communication with it that you should at once send messages? - It is. 16487. (The Commissioner.) Do I understand that messages collect together before you get into communication with Cape Race which have to be transmitted when you get into communication with Cape Race? - Yes, they do. The Commissioner: That explains it. 16488. (The Attorney-General.) One thing more your Lordship will follow. (To the Witness.) Is that your first means of communication with America on your voyage? - Yes. 16489. So that, of course, you would be anxious whatever messages you have got to send to America to get into communication with Cape Race and then transmit them? - Yes. 16490. (The Attorney-General.) Your Lordship sees why he would remember that. (To the Witness.) So that on this particular occasion you have told us now and explained to my Lord why you recollect that. Now will you tell me, when you came up at 12 o’clock and relieved Mr. Phillips did you find any telegrams still to relay to Cape Race? - As far as I can recollect Mr. Phillips told me he had cleared all the traffic to Cape Race. 16491. He had got a considerable accumulation? - Yes. 16492. Now, the only other thing I want you to tell me is, did he tell you - can you recollect, whether he said when it was that he had finished relaying the telegrams to Cape Race? - He did not say. 16493. Was this conversation that you have told me of directly you came up? - Yes. 16494. That is 12 o’clock? - Yes. The Commissioner: After the collision. 16495. (The Attorney-General.) I am just going to ask about that. (To the Witness.) Tell us in your own way; how did you know first of all there had been a collision? - Mr. Phillips intimated that he thought we had struck something from the fact of feeling the shock. 16496. You yourself had not felt it? - No. 16497. Had you been asleep? - Yes. 16498. Did you remain in the room with Mr. Phillips at 12 o’clock? - Yes. 16499. At that time were you sending any messages? - No. 16500. Did the Captain come in to you? - He did shortly afterwards. 16501. Between the time of your coming up and the Captain coming in to you had you sent any messages? - No. 16502. Or received any? - No. 16503. Then what did the Captain say? - The Captain told us he wanted assistance. 16504. I am not quite sure that I understand what you mean by that: assistance where? - He gave us to understand he wanted us to call C.Q.D. 16505. That is to say that what the Captain wanted you to do was to call for assistance from other vessels? - Yes. 16506. And you were to send out this signal C.Q.D.? - Yes. 16507. Did you hear any conversation between Mr. Phillips and the Captain about this? - Yes. 16508. Beyond what you have just told us that you were to call for assistance? - The Captain gave him the latitude and longitude of the “Titanic,” and told him to be quick about it or words to that effect. 16509. Then what did Mr. Phillips do? - He started to call C.Q.D. 16510. After the Captain had come in, the first message was sent out, C.Q.D. was by Mr. Phillips; is that right? - Yes. 16511. I do not know whether you can help us at all with regard to the time a little more than you have. You have told us you came up at 12 o’clock, and that then you heard this conversation between the Captain and Mr. Phillips. Could you give us any idea of the time - how long had elapsed after your coming up at 12 o’clock, or coming into the room with Mr. Phillips? - Not with any accuracy. 16512. Give us the best estimate you can? - I do not think I could. 16513. Do you remember what was the first vessel to answer your C.Q.D. call? - The “Frankfurt.” 16514. Do you remember what the “Frankfurt’s” answer was? - “O.K. Stand by.” 16515. “O.K.” - is that “All right”? - Yes. 16516. What was the next ? - The “Carpathia.” 16517. What was the message from the “Carpathia,” so far as you can recollect it? - She transmitted her position and told us she had turned round and was coming along as fast as she could. 16518. To your assistance? - Yes. The Commissioner: Did the “Frankfurt” transmit her position? - No. 16519. (The Attorney-General.) So as far as I follow from what you have told us, the “Frankfurt’s” message was “O.K. Stand by”? - Yes. 16520. What did you understand that to mean? - That he had got my message and would let me hear from him in a minute or so. 16521. It meant to say “All right,” that he had got your message. “Stand by” - that is. “Wait and I will communicate with you later”? - Yes. 16522. He would have to communicate with the Commanding Officer? - Yes. 16523. You received those two messages, the one from the “Frankfurt” and the other from the “Carpathia;” what did you do then? - I went to report to the Captain. 16524. And Mr. Phillips remained in the room? - Yes. 16525. Did you report to the Captain? - Yes. 16526. Where was he when you reported to him? - He was on the boat deck, the starboard side, if I remember. 16527. What was he doing? - He was superintending the loading of the lifeboats. 16528. Do you recollect any other message? - Yes. 16529. What was the next you recollect? - The next one was the “Olympic.” 16530. What did you do about that? - We received several messages from the “Olympic” from time to time, but to the best of my recollection they were not delivered because Captain Smith was busy and we presumed he would be worried, and we let them go. 16531. (The Commissioner.) What was the effect of the messages? - They merely said - one message I remember was that the Commander of the “Olympic” told Captain Smith to have his lifeboats ready. 16532. (The Attorney-General.) We know what the “Olympic’s” messages are. I wanted to get from him what was done. (To the Witness.) Do you remember the Captain coming in and telling you about the vessel? - The Captain kept in communication with us; we either went to him or he came to us. 16533. What about? - He came in and told us at one time she would not last very long, and he informed us when the engine room was flooded. 16534. Was that before or after you had had the message from the “Carpathia;” do you recollect? - After. 16535. If I follow you correctly, you have got the message from the ‘Frankfurt,” and you have got the message from the “Carpathia” that she was coming to your assistance, and then you got the message or messages from the “Olympic”? - Yes. 16536. And other vessels?- The messages from the “Olympic,” spread over to the time when we left the cabin; from the time we first established communication, Captain Haddock was sending us communications until the time we left the cabin for good. 16537. He was communicating with you, sending you messages throughout? - Yes. 16538. Now, I want you to tell me after that, and before you left for good, as you have told us, did you have any discussion or conversation with Mr. Phillips about the relative strength of the signals of the “Frankfurt,” and the “Carpathia”? - Yes. 16539. What did he say? - Mr. Phillips was of the opinion that the “Frankfurt” was the nearer of the two vessels as the strength of the “Frankfurt’s” signals was greater than those of the “Carpathia.” 16540. Did you establish communication with the “Baltic” at all? - Yes. 16541. Did you send her a message? - I myself informed the “Baltic” of the condition of things. 16542. When you say the condition of things, would you tell us as well as you can to the best of your recollection - I know it is rather hard for you at this moment, but so far as you can? - I explained to the “Baltic” that we had had a collision, and we were sinking fast. 16543. When you sent that message was Mr. Phillips there? - No. 16544. Where had he gone? - He had gone outside to have a look round. 16545. When he came back did you tell him? - Yes. 16546. Did you tell him - I mean of the communication you had established with the “Baltic”? - Yes. 16547. And the message you had sent? - Yes. 16548. Did he tell you what he had found out? - Yes. 16549. What did he say? - He told me the forward well deck was awash. 16550. Did he tell you anything else? - He told me, as far as I remember, that they were putting the women and children in the boats and clearing off. 16551. Was anything said about a list, do you remember? - There was a heavy list to port. 16552. Did you notice that? - Yes. 16553. (The Commissioner.) You noticed that yourself? - Yes. 16554. (The Attorney-General.) Of course, your Lordship recollects we have got a good many of these messages, and they can be referred to at the proper time; I do not want to take him through them all, and we do not depend on memory at all for them, as your Lordship remembers. I wanted him to tell today the story so as to bring him to the point of leaving the Marconi room. (To the Witness.) After he came back and told you that, do you remember the Captain coming in? - Yes. 16555. What did he tell you? - He told us to clear out. 16556. (The Commissioner.) To clear out of the room? - Yes. 16557. (The Attorney-General.) To clear out - why? - It was very evident the ship was sinking. 16558. That you were to shift for yourselves - to do the best you could? - Yes; words to that effect. 16559. Do you remember whether at that time you were called up? - Yes; Mr. Phillips took the ‘phones when the Captain had gone away and he started in to work again. 16560. That was after the Captain had come in and told you to shift for yourselves? - Yes. 16561. When did he get to work again? - Of course I could not read what Mr. Phillips was receiving, but I could read what he was sending, and I judged that the “Carpathia” and the “Frankfurt” had both called up together, and the “Frankfurt” had persisted in calling and was interfering with Mr. Phillips in reading the “Carpathia’s” message. The Commissioner: The one message was blurring the other. 16562. (The Attorney-General.) I did not know whether your Lordship heard it. (To the Witness.) Did Phillips say anything to you about it? - Yes; he expressed his opinion of the “Frankfurt” and then told him to keep out of it, to stand by. 16563. He told the “Frankfurt” to keep out of it and stand by? - Yes. 16564. Did he then communicate with the “Carpathia”? - Yes. 16565. To the best of your recollection, what was it he said? - To the best of my recollection he told the “Carpathia” the way we were abandoning the ship, or words to that effect. 16566. After that did you do anything further? Did you try to call any further ships? - Mr. Phillips called once or twice more, but the power was failing us and I do not think we were getting a spark, as there were no replies. 16567. Why was that? - The power was failing us. 16568. (The Commissioner.) Where did you get your power from? - From the engine room. 16569. From the main engines? - Yes. 16570. (The Attorney-General.) The power was decreasing from there, and you could not get sufficient power to generate your spark? - That is so. 16571. Did you and Philips leave? - Yes, we left the cabin. 16572. What did you do? - We climbed up on top of the Marconi cabin and the officers’ quarters. 16573. That was right on the boat deck? - Yes. 16574. Do you recollect at all whether at that time there were persons on the deck? - Yes, there were. 16575. Many? You could not tell? - I could not tell. 16576. After you got on to the roof, what did you do? - They were trying to fix up a collapsible boat that was up there, and I went to help them. 16577. That was on the top of the officers’ quarters? - Yes. 16578. You went to help them? - Yes. 16579. Did you get it down from the top deck to the boat deck? - Yes. 16580. With all the men who were assisting? - Yes. 16581. What happened to it then? - It got swept off. 16582. That was the collapsible? - Yes. 16583. When it got swept off, did it float? - Yes. 16584. Do you remember at all whether this was on the port or starboard side? - On the port side. 16585. It was on the port side you got the collapsible? - It was at the side of the forward funnel on the top of the officers’ quarters. 16586. What happened to you - did you get into the collapsible? - Yes. 16587. Was it floating all right when you got into it? - It was upside down. 16588. Had it capsized? - Yes. 16589. When you say you got into it, was that after the “Titanic” had sunk? - No, it was before the “Titanic” had sunk. 16590. How did you come from off the boat deck? - I was swept off with the boat. 16591. Was the water then rising all the time? - Yes. 16592. And eventually you were swept off and the water was rising? - Yes. 16593. And as the collapsible boat was swept off into the water you also were swept off; is that correct? - Yes, we went over together. 16594. (The Commissioner.) Just let me understand exactly where that collapsible boat was; was it in front of the forward funnel? - It was on the port side of it, right alongside of it. The Attorney-General: Your Lordship will recollect there are the two emergency boats on each side. 16595. (The Commissioner.) Which is the collapsible boat? The Witness: This one (Pointing on the model.) 16596. Am I to understand that at this time the water was flush with that deck? - Yes - no, it was flush was A deck; we pushed it over from that deck on to A deck. The Attorney-General: That is exactly what Mr. Lightoller explained. 16597. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Then the water was flush with the boat deck? - Yes. 16598. And swept this boat off into the sea and you with it? - Yes. 16599. (The Attorney-General.) Let us be quite clear about it. Do you know which is the A deck? - I have always been given to understand the boat deck was the A deck. 16600. That is what I thought was your impression. The collapsible boat you are speaking of was the one which was on the port side on the deck house. Is that right? - On the deck house, yes. 16601. (The Attorney-General.) Your Lordship will remember there is an emergency boat, then a collapsible, then one on the top and the same on the starboard side, and that makes the four Englehardt collapsibles. (To the Witness.) That one which was on the port side you got down from the deck-house on to the boat deck, as we call it, and then the water washed it off? - Yes. 16602. And washed you off? - Yes. The last I saw of Mr. Phillips he was standing on the deck-house. 16603. (The Attorney-General.) My learned friend reminds me, my Lord, that this is dealt with by Mr. Lightoller, at page 318, Question 14035, and this is what he said about it: “I called for men to go up on the deck of the quarters for the collapsible boat up there. The afterend of the boat was underneath the funnel guy. I told them to swing the afterend up. There was no time to open her up and cut the lashings adrift. Hemming was the man with me there” - (we are to call Hemming) - “and they then swung her round over the edge of the coamings to the upper deck, and let her down on to the boat deck. That is the last I saw of her for a little while.” (To the Witness.) You do not recollect in such detail, I understand? - No. 16604. You told us the collapsible boat capsized. Did you get on to the collapsible boat? - I swam away from it. 16605. Why? - I do not know. 16606. Then what happened to you? - I joined it again later on, three-quarters of an hour to an hour I should estimate, and I climbed on top of it. 16607. You got back again, or, at any rate, you got to the same collapsible boat you say three-quarters of an hour to an hour afterwards? - I should estimate the time to be that. 16608. (The Commissioner.) Had you a lifebelt on? - Yes. (After a short adjournment.) The Solicitor-General: My Lord, the Attorney-General has been called away. Perhaps your Lordship will allow me to finish the witness? The Commissioner: Yes. 16609. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) I think you had just got to the point when you found yourself in the water? - Yes. 16610. Tell us what it was that happened to you? - I swam away from the “Titanic,” saw the “Titanic” go down, and climbed on top of the collapsible boat for the second time, was picked up from there by the “Titanic’s” lifeboat, and taken on board the “Carpathia.” 16611. I want to imitate your own brevity about it as far as I can; but did you get on to the collapsible boat at once, or were you in the water for some little time? - I was in the water for some little time. 16612. Do you mind telling us about it? - I was in the water, I should estimate, nearly three-quarters of an hour. It may have been more. It was some time after the “Titanic” sank. 16613. I only want you to tell us about it. I have looked up your evidence in America. Did you find yourself at the under-side of the collapsible boat? - I was on the under-side of the boat, yes. 16614. I want you to tell us about it? - I was on the underside of the boat. After I had been there two or three seconds I cleared myself and swam away from it. 16615. The collapsible boat is a flat kind of thing like a raft? - Yes. 16616. You mean, you found yourself on the underside of that? - Yes. 16617. (The Commissioner.) In the water? - Yes. 16618. Knocking your head against the bottom of it? - I was upside down myself. I was lying on my back. 16619. (The Solicitor-General.) You were lying on your back, and found yourself on the underside of this raft? - Yes. 16620. Was there an air space between the underside of that and the top of the water? - I could not find it. 16621. Then you were in the water? - Yes. 16622. (The Commissioner.) You cannot have been very long there? - Oh, no. 16623. You must have got out of that position? - Yes, I did. The Commissioner: What is this material to? 16624. (The Solicitor-General.) It is not very material except that one likes to be satisfied we have got hold of the same gentleman who gave evidence in America. I read here: “You remained under the boat how long?” and you are recorded as giving an answer: “I should say about three-quarters of an hour or half” Is that right? - No. Senator Smith pressed that question, and I could not give him any idea, he said: “How long did it seem”? and I said: “It seemed a life time.” 16625. The next question is” “Was there a breathing space under the boat when it was turned over in that way?” and you are recorded as having answered “Yes, Sir.” Did you mean, no? - No, I do not think I said anything like that. 16626. “So that you got away from it as quickly as you could? - (A.) Yes, Sir. (Q.) Then you got out of it and got on it. At any rate, there seems to be some confusion. Now, going back a minute or two to the practice - supposing a message comes to the Marconi room for the Captain, and it is heard, taken down, I suppose, by either you or Phillips. Do you see? - Yes. 16627. Just tell us what happens; what would you do in a case like that? - In a case like that I should take it along myself to the Captain. 16628. What is it you would take along? - The message. 16629. Well, I suppose it is a piece of paper? - Yes, a piece of paper. It would be enclosed in an envelope. 16630. Would it be enclosed in an envelope? - Yes. 16631. Then there is not any ship’s messenger or boy who does this; you do it yourself? - Well, you can have one, but by the time you have rung for him to come up, and he has come up, you could have taken it yourself and be back again. 16632. (The Commissioner.) You are close to him? - We are close to the Captain on the “Titanic.” 16633. (The Solicitor-General.) And would it be part of the duty of you or Phillips, as the case may be, to get such messages delivered? - Yes. 16634. If the message is addressed to the Captain, is it your duty to give it to him personally, or where do you put it, or what do you do with it? - It is our duty to ascertain somehow or other, that the message is delivered to the Captain to give it to a responsible man - the Captain’s steward - or take it ourselves. 16635. I think you told the Attorney-General that there had been a number of messages during the voyage, of different sorts, for the Captain? Is that so? - Yes. 16636. As far as you know, were those messages delivered? - Yes. 16637. As far as they came, when you were on duty, did you deliver them? - I delivered them myself. I delivered several that came when Phillips was on duty. 16638. Are these messages that came to the ship for the Captain paid for message by message, or are they included in some rate? - Some of them may be paid for; they may be messages from passengers on other ships; they may be Master’s service messages, or they may be franked messages from the office, or from the Captain of another ship to our Captain. 16639. Let us take the Master’s service messages - we have heard of them? - They deal with the navigation of the ship, and anything relating to the shipping company. 16640. Are those paid for message by message? - No, they are free between ship and ship. 16641. And supposing it was the other way about - supposing Captain Smith was sending a message which was a Master’s service message to another ship, would that be paid for, or does that go free? - That is likewise free. 16642. Now let us take the messages for passengers? - If Captain Smith was sending a message to passenger it would go free of charge, because the Marconi Company allow the Captain and the officers of the ship a grant of so many words free of charge. 16643. It is my fault; I did not quite mean that. You had passengers on board, I suppose who wanted to send messages? - Yes. 16644. Now, when they want to send a message what is done? Is it written down, or how does it happen? - The passenger goes to the purser’s office, is handed a form, and writes down his telegram, and the purser charges him for it, and, incidentally, it works back to the Marconi Company. 16645. (The Commissioner.) And the money is paid how? - To the purser on the majority of ships. 16646. And does the purser account to the Marconi Company for the amount of money at the end of the voyage? - Yes. In the case of the “Titanic” the message was sent up by a pneumatic tube to our office. 16647. (The Solicitor-General.) Sent up by pneumatic tube from the purser’s office to you? - Yes. Here was a ship going to America with a number of people on board, some of them Americans; can you tell us by the time you got into touch with the mainland, with Cape Race, had you got an accumulation of messages waiting to be sent to America? 16648. (The Commissioner.) He told us that, you know? The Witness: I had a very large accumulation. 16649. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Phillips worked them off. How are you paid? - I am paid by the Marconi Company. 16650. Yes. I did not mean that, but are you paid a fixed salary or according to the number of messages? - We are paid a fixed salary. 16651. Your pay does not depend upon the number of messages sent? - No. 16652. Do you know how you are on the articles of the ship? - Yes. 16653. What does the ship pay you? - 1s a month in some ships; in the White Star Line I received a fixed salary. 16654. How much did you receive from the White Star Company? - I have not received anything. 16655. But how much were you to receive? - I could not say; I think it was Ł 2 5s. a month. The Solicitor-General: I have it here. As you said, you are on the articles of the ship’s company. What I have here is the office copy, which is forwarded to the Registrar-General of Seamen, and I see here, “H. S. Bride.” That is you, is it not? - [No Answer.] 16656. “Aged” - I cannot read it. What is your age? - 22. 16657. “London,” and then there is an address given. 16658. (The Commissioner.) While you are on the question of age, will you tell me what age Phillips was? - He was somewhere between 24 and 25, I believe. 16659. (The Solicitor-General.) Phillips is entered here as 24. (To the Witness.) Now, “Bride, London,” I cannot read what it says about the name and official number and the port she belonged to - that is your last ship, I suppose - what was it? - The “Anselm.” 16660. Yes, that is it, and you are written down as “Telegraphist”? - Yes. 16661. Ł2 2s. 6d. a month. I suppose you are paid a salary by the Marconi Company? - Yes. 16662. (The Commissioner.) What salary do you get from the Marconi Company? - Ł4 a month. The Solicitor-General: We deliberately refrained from asking Mr. Turnbull, the Marconi gentleman, the details about the agreement with the White Star because he was not prepared with the documents, and we thought it would be better to recall him on that part of the case so that we will not pursue it. 16663. I think you stated it was about 3 o’clock in the afternoon on this Sunday when you heard the “Californian” message? - I said 5. 16664. Five, you said? - Yes. 16665. I thought you said 3, but you say it was 5 o’clock by ship’s time? - Yes, between 5 and half-past. 16666. You knew it was an ice message? - Yes. 16667. I think you stated to the Attorney-General that you were engaged in adding up your accounts? - Yes. 16668. And then you went on adding up your accounts, and paid no attention to this message? - No. 16669. Then some time afterwards, I forget whether you gave us the time, you happened to hear it repeated? - Yes, that is correct. 16670. Then you had not written it down when you heard it the first time? - No. 16671. You knew it was a message to the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16672. Reporting ice? - Yes. 16673. You did not write it down? - No. 16674. You took no notice of it at all, but went on adding up your accounts? - Yes. 16675. Then, if you had not happened to hear that message repeated to another ship nothing would ever have been heard of that message? - Yes, it would. 16676. Well, forgive me. It gave the latitude and longitude. You had written nothing down when the message first came? - No. 16677. Do you suggest that without writing anything down, and being busy with accounts, you can trust yourself to carry in your head the latitude and longitude which had been given in the message? - No, I had read the text of the message, which mentioned three large bergs. I had not got the latitude and longitude, and I should have called the “Californian” if she had not transmitted it at a very short period afterwards, and asked her for the latitude and longitude. 16678. The latitude and longitude you could not have carried in your head? - No. 16679. The only way of getting that message would have been to call the “Californian” afterwards to get the latitude and longitude? - Yes. 16680. You happened to hear it repeated, did you say, a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes afterwards? - Yes. 16681. Are you sure about the time? - Yes. 16682. Had you finished your accounts by that time? - No. 16683. Were you still on your accounts? - Yes. The Commissioner: What are those accounts? 16684. (Sir Robert Finlay.) What were you doing? - I was writing up an abstract of all the telegrams sent the day before. The Solicitor-General: That is the procčs-verbal. 16685. (Sir Robert Finlay - To the Witness.) Is that what has been called the procčs-verbal? - No, the telegrams; it gives the place where the telegram originated from and where it is going to, the station it is sent to; and the cost of the telegram, and the costs of the coast station, our charge, and everybody else’s charge, one by one. 16686. Then when you heard it repeated you recognised it as being the message which had been sent to your ship? - Yes. 16687. And wrote it down and took it on to the bridge? - Yes. 16688. Now with regard to the payment of service messages, that, I understand you to say, is covered by the arrangement between the steamship company and the Marconi Company? - We are told to make no charge for that. 16689. No charge is made for that. Then all such messages as were sent on to Cape Race, trade and private messages, would be an extra payment to the Marconi Company - to your company? - Messages that were sent on to Cape Race at the request of passengers would be paid messages; messages sent to Cape Race on behalf of the company would be free messages. 16690. What I said was, trade and private messages sent on to Cape Race would be paid for extra? - Yes. 16691. They would not be included in the service messages? - No. 16692. I think you used the expression - I am not sure whether his Lordship caught it - that there was a very large accumulation of those messages? - Yes. The Commissioner: That is the accumulation Phillips cleared off while the witness was asleep? 16693. (Sir Robert Finlay.) How long was Phillips occupied in clearing off those arrears of messages for Cape Race? He began at 8.30? - Yes. 16694. When did he finish? - I should estimate he could not have finished before nine anyhow from the batch he had, but I could not give you any idea as to when he did actually finish. 16695. I think you saw Phillips about 10 minutes before the collision, did you not? - No; after the collision. 16696. I want to ask you about what you said in America before the Committee of the Senate on this point. Were you asked this question, and did you give this answer: “Were you working with Cape Race, or was Phillips, to your knowledge, just before the collision with the iceberg? - (A.) As far as I recollect, Phillips had finished working with Cape Race 10 minutes before the collision with the iceberg. He made mention of the fact when I turned out.” Did you say that, and is that true? - I said that, but I could not remember what he said now. 16697. But did you say that? - I said that to Senator Smith, but I could not recollect now what Phillips told me after I had turned out. 16698. Was what you said to Senator Smith true? - Well, I was on oath at the time. 16699. I presume what you said was true? - Yes. 16700. (The Commissioner.) Then what you stated just now must be a mistake? - What was that? 16701. That this man had finished his work about 9 o’clock. - I said he could not have finished sending the batch of telegrams before 9. At the same time Cape Race would have a number of telegrams to transmit to him as was proved by the “Californian” The “Californian” said she heard Cape Race sending him telegrams. 16702. (Sir Robert Finlay.) You know Phillips was engaged in communicating with Cape Race right on from half-past 8 to 10 minutes before the collision? - Apparently so, yes. 16703. Well, have you any doubt about it? - No. I do not think so. I am judging by the amount of work that was got through. 16704. He was engaged during these hours from half-past 8 to 10 minutes before the collision in communicating with Cape Race these trade and private messages? - Yes. 16705. We shall be able to get all those messages, I suppose, from the Marconi Company? - Yes. 16706. There is one other point. You told us that the ship to which you overheard the message repeated from the “Californian” was the “Baltic”? - Yes. 16707. Have you any reason to doubt the correctness of what you said? - I have since; but at the time I was sure of it, as far as my memory served me. 16708. Still, as far as your memory serves you, it was the “Baltic”? - Yes. The Commissioner: Do you want to ask anything more, Mr. Solicitor? The Solicitor-General: There is one thing I am not quite clear about. I understand my friend is going to recall these two officers. It does not arise in any way out of cross-examination. It is the message which he does know of from the “Californian.” I do not myself quite follow at present what it was that he did with it, according to his own recollection, and it might be important. The Commissioner: He took it to the bridge and gave it to an officer. 16709. (The Solicitor-General.) That means he wrote it down on a piece of paper? The Witness: Yes. 16710. (The Commissioner.) And put it in an envelope? - No, that particular message was not put in an envelope. The Solicitor-General: May I ask about it? The Commissioner: Yes. Re-examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL. 16711. This is the message from the “Californian”? - Yes. 16712. And it refers to the three icebergs, and gave the latitude and longitude? - Yes. 16713. Did you personally hear the message? - Yes. 16714. Did you write it down? - Yes. The Commissioner: Which message are you now talking of? The Solicitor-General: The only one that he says he remembers - the one from the “Californian,” which says they had passed three icebergs and gave the latitude and longitude. 16715. (The Commissioner.) I understood he got that twice. (To the Witness.) Is not that so? - No, the first time I did not take it down. 16716. Yes, I know, but you received it. It came to your ears? - It came to my ears, yes. 16717. That is what I call receiving it? - I took no notice of it. 16718. And because you were busy you took no notice of it? - Yes. 16719. And that message contained, or there was comprised in it, the latitude and longitude where the ice was supposed to have been seen? - Yes. 16720. You took no notice of that message, but went on with your accounts? - Yes. 16721. For something like an hour and a half? - No. 16722. How long? - Between a quarter of an hour and 20 minutes. 16723. I thought it was an hour and 20 minutes? - No. 16724. And then you got it again? - Yes. 16725. And then you took it down and did not put it in an envelope? - No. 16726. But took it to the bridge and gave it to an officer on the bridge? - Yes. 16727. The only difference is that I thought there was an interval of more than an hour between getting the first message and getting the second message? - No. 16728. (The Solicitor-General.) I am going to ask your Lordship to allow me to test it, because it is important to get the time. (To the Witness.) Take this in your hand. You will see it is a “Californian” procčs-verbal. You are familiar with that sort of document (Handing same to the Witness.) Do you see the page before you is the page for the 14th April? - Yes. 16729. And is it the “Californian” procčs-verbal? - Yes. 16730. Did you see an entry about exchanging Trs. with the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16731. What is the time? - Five-twenty. 16732. Is that New York time? - Yes. 16733. If it is 5.20 New York time, it would be later according to your ship’s time, would it not? - Yes, ship’s time. The Commissioner: It would be about 7.20. 16734. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes. (To the Witness.) Do you know Mr. Evans? - Yes. 16735. That is the operator on the “Californian”? - Yes. 16736. He has given evidence, you know, and he says at half-past 7, ship’s time, there or thereabouts, the “Titanic” stated that they had got a message about the ice, about the three icebergs; he puts that at half-past 7, you see. Now, Mr. Bride, does not that correspond with his entry 5.20 New York time? - [No answer.] The Commissioner: Put it to him again. The Solicitor-General: I do not wish to seem to be pressing him. The Commissioner: No. It is because I do not want him to be bothered that I want you to put it to him again. 16737. (The Solicitor-General.) I put before you just now, and you have before you now, the procčs-verbal of the “Californian”? - Yes, 5.20 Trs. with M.G.Y. 16738. Is not “M.G.Y.” the “Titanic”? - “M.G.Y.” is the “Titanic.” It says on the top “New York time.” 16739. And do you agree that 5.20 New York time would mean on your ship something like half-past 7? - Yes. 16740. And are not all those entries on that procčs-verbal made in order of time line after line? - Yes. 16741. Just give us the time immediately in front of the one I called your attention to? - 5.5. 16742. That is 15 minutes before; what is the time immediately following the one I called your attention to? - 5.35. 16743. You have no doubt those entries were made at the time when each thing occurred? - I have no doubt at all. 16744. Does not that show that there were messages being exchanged between the “Titanic” and the “Californian” at 5.20? - Yes. Perhaps you had better look at the message which at that time was being sent by the “Californian” about 7. Is not that better, my Lord? (To the Witness.) Just see if you can help us now about it (Handing message to the Witness.) The Commissioner: There is no record in the procčs-verbal of the “Californian” of two messages having been despatched. The Solicitor-General: That is right, my Lord. I will have it looked at. The Commissioner: There is no record of two messages having been sent. 16745. (The Solicitor-General.) No, my Lord, I am told not. (To the Witness.) Have you before you now the “Californian’s” record of the message about ice? - Yes. 16746. Just look at it, because I only want to get it clear. That message that you have before you now, what time, New York time, is it sent off? - Five-thirty-five. 16747. That corresponds exactly. And is that a message about “latitude, 42 deg. 3 min. N., longitude, 49 deg. 9 min. W. Three large bergs five miles southward of us. Regards. - Lord”? - Yes. 16748. That actual message is being sent to the “Antillian,” I think? - Yes. 16749. So far as regards the language of that message, the latitude and longitude and the three bergs, does it resemble the one which you heard? - Yes. 16750. Now just think? - With the exception that I cannot recollect the “regards” or the signature or any name or address. 16751. You probably would not remember the address or the signature? - No. 16752. But as regards latitude and longitude and three bergs, that is the same sort of thing? - Yes. 16753. Now that is sent off between five and six, New York time. Do not you think that the message you heard must have been heard by you between five and six, New York time? - No. To the best of my recollection it was between five and six, ship’s time. 16754. If there was a message sent from the “Californian” to the “Titanic” between five and six, ship’s time, that would be about three o’clock, New York time? - Yes. 16755. Now will you look in the procčs-verbal of the “Californian,” and see whether there is any reference to any message sent between three and four, New York time, to the “Titanic”? - No, because the first signals he has down with the “Titanic” are at 5.20, when he exchanges Trs. 16756. That is the one I called your attention to. Does not exchanging Tr.’s mean that he has then got into communication with the “Titanic” for the first time? - Yes. That is what it means. It starts the communication? The Commissioner: Does it all come to this, that his own memory is quite defective about it? 16757. (The Solicitor-General.) Assuming those records are right, you must be making a mistake about the time, must you not? - I do not think I am making any mistake about the time. 16758. But assuming those records are right? - Assuming those records are right, yes. 16759. Assuming they are right, you are making a mistake? - Yes. Sir Robert Finlay: It is a matter of argument. Then, my Lord, I desire to recall Mr. Lightoller and Mr. Boxhall. 16760. (The Commissioner.) I want to ask this witness another question. (To the Witness.) The only ice message that you heard anything at all about was the ice message from the “Californian”? - That was the only one. 16761. Now, be very careful. Is it the only one that you heard anything at all about while you were on the “Titanic”? - The only one. 16762. Had you any conversation with Phillips about ice messages? - I cannot recall any. 16763. Can you recall any conversation with Phillips in which he mentioned an ice message having been received by him? - No. 16764. Then, so far as you know from your own knowledge, or from conversation which you had with anybody on board the ship, there was no ice message received, except the “Californian’s”? - As far as I am concerned, that was the only one. 16765. The only one you either know of or heard of? - Yes. 16766. Do you remember the Captain coming to tell you and Phillips to clear out? - Yes. 16767. Can you tell us what time of night that was? - No. 16768. You have a clock in your room, have you not? - We have two. 16769. You have a clock with the ship’s time? - Yes. 16770. Have you any recollection of having seen or looked at the clock when you were told to clear out? - I had been looking at the clock whilst I was getting my P.V. entered up, my procčs-verbal, but cannot recall any of the times now. 16771. You cannot tell us when it was that the Captain came in and told you to clear out? - No. Mr. Lewis: May I ask a question, my Lord? The Commissioner: Yes. 16772. (Sir Robert Finlay.) May I ask the witness one question? (To the Witness.) When you are entering up the procčs-verbal was there any reference to any other ice? - I am talking of the time when we were calling for assistance. Examined by Mr. LEWIS. 16773. When you returned to the Marconi room on the last occasion did anything unusual occur? - We had a lady inside there who was in a fainting condition, sitting down in a chair. 16774. Have you made a statement at any time that you found Mr. Phillips being attacked or his lifebelt being removed? - Someone was taking the lifebelt off Phillips when I left the cabin. 16775. Do I understand you to state that you thought it was a stoker who was taking this lifebelt off Mr. Phillips? - I presumed from the appearance of the man that he was someone in that line of business. 16776. This would have been a few minutes before you left the room? - Yes. 16777. Was he dressed in stoker’s gear? - Yes. 16778. Do I understand that you hit him, or what? - Well, we stopped him from taking the lifebelt off. 16779. “We,” you say? - Yes. 16780. I understood the report was that Mr. Phillips was engaged at this time with his work? - Yes. 16781. Sending messages; and that you forced this man away? - Well, I forced the man away and it attracted Mr. Phillips’s attention, and he came and assisted me. 16782. Is your recollection of this matter very clear? - It is fairly clear. 16783. Would you know the man again if you saw him? - I am not likely to see him. 16784. You are supposed to have hit him? - Well, I held him and Mr. Phillips hit him. 16785. Mr. Phillips hit him? - Yes. 16786. That is the difference between what you say and what I read. You are absolutely positive on this question? - I am positive on it, yes. 16787. Now, with regard to the installation, did you have any spare transmitters on board? - We had a standard 5 kilowatt set, as supplied by the Marconi Company, and we had emergency gear also. 16788. Was that out of gear at any time? - We had had some trouble with it the night before. 16789. For how long was it out of gear? - For five and a half to six hours. 16790. That would have been on the Saturday? - Yes. 16791. Late on Saturday? - From 11 o’clock Friday night till half-past four or five Saturday morning. 16792. Nothing occurred to it while you were on watch; I know you were off and did not go on watch again till 12. But during your watch was there any defect? - What time was this? When are you talking about? 16793. On the Sunday? - There was nothing the matter with the apparatus on the Sunday. 16794. When you reported at 12, you did not hear from Mr. Phillips whether there had been any defect? - Apparently there had not been considering the traffic he had got through. Examined by Mr. HARBINSON. 16795. (Mr. Harbinson.) I should like to ask two questions, if I may. (To the Witness.) Do you remember how long it was after the collision when you learned that the “Carpathia” was coming to your assistance? - The “Carpathia” was the second boat to answer our call. 16796. Can you remember how long that was after the collision? - No, I could not tell you; it was within a very short space of time after we sent out our first distress signal. 16797. And you took that message to the Captain, you told us? - Yes. 16798. Now, do you know if the Captain communicated the substance of your message to any of the officers or to the crew? - I passed the word myself, as I went to find the Captain. 16799. To whom did you pass it? - To anybody whom I happened to go close by. 16800. Did you pass it to any of the officers? - Not to my knowledge. 16801. But you gave it out that the “Carpathia” was coming to your assistance? - Yes. (The Witness withdrew.) Sir Robert Finlay: Now I want to recall Mr. Lightoller. CHARLES HERBERT LIGHTOLLER, Recalled. Further examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY. 16802. You have heard that a message was sent, according to the evidence, to the “Titanic,” for transmission to Cape Race, from the “Amerika”? - Yes. 16803. Which would reach the “Titanic” about 2 p.m.? - Yes. 16804. You know the nature of that message? - I heard it, yes. 16805. And that a message is said to have been sent from the “Mesaba” which could not reach the “Titanic” before about 10 p.m.? - Yes. 16806. You have heard that? - Yes, I have heard of that also. 16807. Did you ever hear of any such messages? - Nothing whatever. 16808. What was the course of business with regard to messages which are communicated by the Marconi operators to the Captain or officers? - It is customary for the message to be sent direct to the bridge. If addressed “The Captain,” or “Captain Smith,” it is delivered to Captain Smith personally, if he was in the quarters or about the bridge. If Captain Smith is not immediately get-at-able, if not in his room or on the bridge, it is then delivered to the senior officer of the watch. Captain Smith’s instructions were to open all telegrams and act on your own discretion. 16809. And are you positive that you never heard anything of either of those telegrams? - Absolutely positive. 16810. What were you doing during the day; just recapitulate in this connection what you were doing. In the afternoon, about 2 o’clock, where would you be? - I was below. 16811. When did you come up? - At 6 o’clock. 16812. And from 6? - From 6 till 10, with the exception of half an hour for dinner. 16813. You were on the bridge? - I was. 16814. And nothing was said by anyone about such telegrams? - There was no telegram received by me nor did I hear of any telegram. 16815. Were you in communication with the Captain and with other officers during that time? - Between six and ten? 16816. Yes? - I was in communication with the Chief Officer when I relieved him, and with the First Officer when I was relieved by him for dinner, and with the Commander when he was on the bridge, as well as junior officers. 16817. How often, and for how long, did you see the Commander on the bridge? - He came on the bridge about five minutes to 9, and remained with me till about twenty or twenty-five past nine. 16818. A message such as that from the “Mesaba” would be one, of course, of great importance? - I have no doubt it would have been immediately communicated to me if it referred to pack ice, as I believe it does. The Solicitor-General: May I ask him a question or two about it? Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL. 16819. How many messages about ice on the 14th have you any knowledge of? - I have a distinct recollection of the message that the Commander brought on the bridge to me, and which I mentioned as having read while he held it in his hands. 16820. You told us that was about a quarter to one? - Yes. The Solicitor-General: I will give your Lordship the reference, if I may. That will be found in this witness’s evidence at page 302, Question 13466. Perhaps I may read two or three before that. Your Lordship had asked: “What time was it?” and I had said: “So far, my Lord, he has said it was between 12.30 and 1 in the middle of the day”; and then I said to Mr. Lightoller: “(13460.) Can you fix at all as between those times? - (A.) About 12.45 as near as I can remember. (Q.) Very well; about a quarter to 1? - (A.) Yes. (Mr. Laing.) I have the wording of it,” and he handed to me the wording of the “Caronia” message. I read that to the witness. Then I said at Question 13463: “You had not heard anything about that before you went off your watch at 10 o’clock? - (A.) No. (Q.) Can you help us? Would 9.44 a.m. “Caronia’s” time coming from New York be likely to be later than your 10 o’clock watch coming to an end? You see, you went off duty at 10? - (A.) Yes. (The Commissioner.) Did Captain Smith tell you when he had received the Marconigram? - (A.) No, my Lord. (The Solicitor-General.) And the first you knew of it was when Captain Smith showed it to you at about a quarter to one? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) So far as your knowledge goes, is that the first information as to ice which you had heard of as being received by the “Titanic”? - (A.) That is the first I have any recollection of.” That is that one. The Commissioner: Where is that last question? 16821. (The Solicitor-General.) The very bottom question on page 302. (To the Witness.) That is the “Caronia’s” message, so that we may fairly treat that as identified and brought to your notice in that way? - Yes. 16822. Now apart from that message, were not other messages, in your belief, received to the knowledge of the officers about ice on the 14th? - To my belief there were perhaps some messages, but I can give no information and I cannot recollect with any degree of distinctness having seen them. 16823. I will tell you why I put the question, and I think my Lord will remember it. I put it to you for this reason. I asked you if you recollected when you were here the other day, whether Mr. Moody, when he calculated that you would reach the ice at 11 p.m., had, you thought, used the “Caronia” message, and you told me your impression was he had used another message; is not that so? - Precisely. 16824. That is in the middle of page 304, Question 13531. You will see the answer: “I directed the Sixth Officer to let me know at what time we should reach the vicinity of the ice. The junior officer reported to me, “About 11 o’clock.” (Q.) Do you recollect which of the junior officers it was? - (A.) Yes, Mr. Moody, the Sixth. (Q.) That would involve his making some calculations, of course? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Had this Marconigram about the ice, with the meridians on it, been put up; was it on any notice board, or anything of the sort? - (A.) That I could not say with any degree of certainty. Most probably, in fact very probably, almost certainly, it would be placed on the notice board for that purpose in the chart room. (Q.) At any rate, when you gave Mr. Moody those directions he had the material to work on? - (A.) Exactly. (Q.) And he calculated and told you about 11 o’clock you would be near the ice? - (A.) Yes.” Then the next question and answer: “That is to say an hour after your watch finished? - (A.) Yes. I might say, as a matter of fact, I have come to the conclusion that Mr. Moody did not take the same Marconigram which Captain Smith had shown me on the bridge, because, on running it up just mentally, I came to the conclusion that we should be to the ice before 11 o’clock by the Marconigram that I saw.” Then your Lordship says: “In your opinion, when, in point of fact, would you have reached the vicinity of the ice? - (A.) I roughly figured out about half-past 9. (Q.) Then had Moody made a mistake? - (A.) I should not say a mistake, only he probably had not noticed the 49° wireless” - that is the “Caronia” one you had seen? - Yes. 16825. “There may have been others, and he may have made his calculations from one of the other Marconigrams. (Q.) Do you know which other Marconigram he would have to work from? - (A.) No, my Lord, I have no distinct recollection of any other Marconigrams. (Q.) Because it is suggested to me that there was no Marconigram which would indicate arrival at the ice-field at 11 o’clock? - (A.) Well, my Lord, as far as my recollection carries me, Mr. Moody told me 11, and I came to that conclusion that he had probably used some other Marconigram”? - Exactly. 16826. As a matter of fact, if one takes the Marconigram, for instance, from the “Baltic,” which we proved today, it would give a later time than 9.30, and it would bring you to something like 11 o’clock. Have you noticed that? - No, I have not. I think it will be found so. Sir Robert Finlay: Which message? 16827. (The Solicitor-General.) I am calling his attention to the circumstances. The “Caronia” message mentioned your getting to ice as soon as you got to the 49th meridian? - Exactly. 16828. I do not like to make a suggestion unless the Admiral thinks it is correct, but I think that is substantially so. (To the Witness.) You see what I mean? - Yes. 16829. And your impression at the time was not that Mr. Moody had made a mistake in his calculations, but that he had used another Marconigram? - Exactly. You will quite understand that all I am quoting is purely from memory. I am trying as much as I possibly can, of course, to assist, and it is just these mere facts as I recollect them with regard to 11 o’clock. There is nothing to identify 11 o’clock in my mind, merely what I recollect, and also with regard to the Marconigrams. I put that down as the most feasible explanation of the 11 o’clock, but I cannot say, of course, that Mr. Moody actually had seen other Marconigrams. 16830. Oh, no; you have been perfectly fair and candid about it, as far as I am concerned, if I may say so. You did not ask Mr. Moody to make the calculation again or check it? - No. 16831. You accepted his statement that his calculation showed 11 o’clock? - Yes. 16832. I think one also ought to put it from this point of view. Let me take these telegrams in order and see which of them would come in your watch, as far as one can judge. Your watch was from 6 to 10 a.m. and 6 to 10 p.m.? - Exactly. 16833. You also, I think, relieved Mr. Murdoch, you told us, between half-past 12 and 1, at lunchtime? - Yes. 16834. And during your evening watch, from six to ten you were off for a certain time to dinner? - Exactly. 16835. Now those are the times for which you are responsible. The “Caronia” message by your ship’s time would get to your ship about 11 o’clock. The Commissioner: Ship’s time? 16836. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes. (To the Witness.) Or something of the sort? - Yes. 16837. It was acknowledged at 9.44, New York time, and, adding two hours, will make it between 11 and 12? - Yes. 16838. You would have finished your morning watch by then? - I should. 16839. And you would be off duty? - Yes. I may incidentally mention the fact that I should be on the bridge between a quarter to 12 and a minute or two past 12 taking the noon position; I should be there with the Commander and the Chief and First Officers. 16840. But at any rate you did not hear anything of the “Caronia” message at that time? - Nothing. 16841. You did hear of the “Caronia” message at about a quarter to one, when you were relieving Mr. Murdoch while he had lunch? - About that time, yes. 16842. The next message in order of time that is suggested is the “Amerika” message, which merely goes through the “Titanic”? - Yes. The Solicitor-General: And that would go through apparently about 2 o’clock? Sir Robert Finlay: No; it ought to have been received about 2, but it could not go on till 8.30. It would be put up with other messages and transmitted after 8.30 to Cape Race. The Solicitor-General: You are quite right. It would be in the custody of the Marconi room at some time about 2, and presumably would be kept until they got into communication with Cape Race. Sir Robert Finlay: Yes. 16843. (The Solicitor-General.) When it arrived you were off duty. Assuming this evidence is right it would be in the Marconi room at 6 o’clock when you came on duty again? - Yes. 16844. You heard nothing of that? - Nothing. 16845. The next one is the message from the “Baltic” which, as I pointed out just now, would give the position of the ice at about 11 p.m.? - Yes. 16846. That message from the “Baltic” would get to your ship at about 1 o’clock? - I think so, 1 p.m. 16847. You would be off duty? - Yes. 16848. Do you observe that if you told Mr. Moody when you came on duty at 6 p.m. to calculate when he would meet ice, the “Baltic” message would be a later message in point of time than the “Caronia” message? - I see. 16849. Then the “Californian” message? - If I may interrupt you to make it a little clearer; when I gave Mr. Moody instructions (I think if I did not say it in my evidence, I ought to have done) I used words to the effect that would guide him to look for the earliest ice, to let me know at what time we should be up at the ice. He would naturally look at the easternmost. 16850. When you gave him instructions, as far as you knew there was only one ice message? - Yes. 16851. You did not know of two? - No. 16852. Then if I take the “Californian” message, it appears that that message passed at about half-past 7, ship’s time. That is right, Sir Robert, I think. Sir Robert Finlay: Yes. Of course, there is a conflict between the procčs-verbal and the other witness. 16853. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) You were on duty between 6 and 10? - Yes. 16854. So that that message, if it arrived at 7.30, would arrive during your evening watch? - Yes. 16855. But you are off duty at some time between 6 and 10, in order to get dinner? - Yes. 16856. What is the sort of time you are off duty? - Half-an-hour. I think that is 7.5 to 7.35, as near as I remember. 16857. And who took your place when you were off duty? - Mr. Murdoch, the First Officer. 16858. You knew nothing of the “Californian” message at all? - Nothing whatever. 16859. Then the last one, the “Mesaba” message, according to the evidence given, would reach your ship about 10 o’clock? - Yes. 16860. That is when you would be changing watch, and Mr. Murdoch would be taking your place? - Yes. 16861. (The Commissioner.) You told Mr. Moody you wanted him to ascertain the time when you would meet the most easterly of the ice. Was that so? - That is the impression I wished to convey, whether I actually used the word easterly I do not recollect, but he would naturally conclude that, I should judge. 16862. The information in the “Caronia’s” telegram would indicate that the ice there referred to was considerably to the north of the track? - I believe so. 16863. Is it possible that Mr. Moody may have calculated the position of the ice given by the “Baltic’s” telegram? - It is possible, but it is most probable that he would pay the greatest attention to the longitude regardless of the latitude. 16864. But if he did calculate according to the “Baltic’s” telegram, he would ascertain the time at which the ice would be arrived at as 11 o’clock? - Quite so. 16865. And the “Baltic’s” information was to the effect that ice was on the track? - A little to the north. 16866. (The Solicitor-General.) If your Lordship will turn to page 366, Mr. Lowe’s evidence, you will see why I think it well to put it to this gentleman. (To the Witness.) Let me tell you how the matter stands. You are on duty from 6 to 10 in the evening and about half-past seven according to the “Californian” witnesses, there was a message sent from the “Californian,” of which you know nothing? - That is right. 16867. You, as a matter of fact, were off for dinner for half an hour from seven to half-past? - Yes. 16868. I am referring to the questions beginning 15778. Did you see anything at all of a piece of paper, not in an envelope - a small piece of paper - a square chit of paper about 3 by 3 with the word “ice” on it any time between 6 and 8? - No. 16869. What would be meant by seeing a small piece of paper on the chart room table? Which room is it? - Leading out of the wheelhouse on the afterpart of the port side. 16870. It is the thing which is marked on my plan as the chart-house then? - Yes. 16871. Is there a table there? - There is. 16872. And supposing there is a message about ice and it cannot be given personally to the Captain, where would such a message be put? - It would not be put anywhere; it would be brought out on the bridge to the senior officer of the watch. 16873. Whoever he was? - Whoever he was. 16874. This little room, the chart-house, is immediately aft of the wheelhouse? - On the port side, yes. 16875. You heard nothing of that? - Nothing. 16876. And you were off for dinner for half an hour? - Yes. 16877. (The Commissioner.) Why would the piece of paper with the word “ice” upon it be placed there? - I may say I do not quite follow what you mean by the word “ice” unless you are alluding to a message written on a chit of paper. 16878. This is the evidence. He is asked on page 366, Question 15779: “You were on duty from 6 to 8? - (A.) I was. (Q.) Did you hear anything about any messages about ice? - (A.) There was a chit on the chart room table with the word ‘ice’ on” - meaning “ice” on the piece of paper. The Solicitor-General: Will your Lordship read the next two or three questions. 16879. (The Commissioner.) Yes. “You mean a little piece of paper with ‘ice’ written on it? - (A.) A square chit of paper about 3 by 3. (Q.) On the chart room table? - (A.) On our chart room table. (Q.) What is that, ‘Our chart room table’? - (A.) The officers’ chart room table, and the word ‘ice’ was written on top and then a position underneath. (Q.) Can you remember what the position was? - (A.) I cannot.” What is this chart room table? - It consists of the top of a chest of drawers. In those drawers are all the charts, necessarily big drawers, to contain the charts fully laid out, and also drawers for navigational books, instruction books, and so on. 16880. Would that chit of paper be placed there by somebody with the position marked upon it so that a chart might be consulted for the purpose of finding out where that ice was? - A track chart is always lying on that chart room table. I quite understand what a chit of paper is. There are little pads, position pads, and deviation pads, and it is customary to tear off one of these chits and write on the back; and it would have been left on the chart room table, lying on the top of the chart. 16881. (The Solicitor-General.) Were you in Court here this morning when Mr. Bride gave evidence? - I was. 16882. Did you hear him say that the message heard from the “Californian” he wrote down on a bit of paper, but he did not put it in an envelope? - Yes. 16883. And if the message from the “Californian” came at half-past 7, then it would be on that watch of Mr. Lowe’s that he is referring to here, 6 to 8? - Yes. 16884. (The Commissioner.) You knew nothing of that. Are these messages which come from the Marconi room written on chits of paper? - No, my Lord. 16885. They are on forms? - On proper telegraph forms. My explanation of that chit of paper would be that an officer has copied from some wireless telegram; he has noticed that there has been an ice-position on, and he has just scribbled down on a piece of paper “ice,” and the position, and then has probably gone to the chart room, found the position, and marked it on the chart, and left the paper there, instead of crumpling it up and throwing it away; but I do not think that chit was of any importance, and I do not think it came from the Marconi room - except, I mean, as a copy of the wireless. 16886. (The Solicitor-General.) Do not say it is not of importance. When you say it had a position, you mean it stated probably the latitude and longitude? - Yes. Do you know what Mr. Lowe says he did about it. Just look at page 370. There is a question asked by Sir Robert Finlay: “(Q. 15984.) You saw this chit, the note about the ice on the table? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Did you work it out? - (A.) I worked it out roughly. (Q.) You were on watch 6 to 8? - (A.) Yes. I ran this position through my mind, and worked it out mentally and found that the ship would not be within the ice region during my watch, that is from 6 to 8. (Q.) You do not recollect what the figures were? - (A.) I do not. (Q.) But that was the result you arrived at? - (A.) That was the result I arrived at.” Sir Robert Finlay: May I ask one question on that? Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY. 16887. You have been asked about the instructions you gave as to working out the time when you would get to the ice? - Yes. 16888. About what time was it you gave those instructions? - Soon after I came on deck. That is, soon after 6 o’clock. 16889. And when did you get the report? - It was some time later, because they were working stars; probably shortly before 7 o’clock. 16890. That, of course, was long before any “Mesaba” message could, by any possibility, have reached the “Titanic”? - Yes, I believe so. 16891. You have heard the “Mesaba” message, of course? - Yes. 16892. Is that a message which, if the Captain or any officer had got, he could have failed to communicate to his colleagues? - I think had that message been delivered, even to the Captain, he would immediately have brought the message out personally to the bridge; he would not even have sent it out, and he would have seen it was communicated to all the senior officers, as well as distinctly marked on the chart. It was of the utmost importance. 16893. And of a somewhat startling character? - Extremely so. 16894. The Captain, I think you said, had been on the bridge at 9.30? - From 5 minutes to 9 till 20 or 25 minutes past. 16895. (The Commissioner.) Will you tell me what messages, to begin with, about ice you saw on the 14th? - The one that the Commander brought on to the bridge in his own hands to me shortly after midday. 16896. Is that the “Caronia”? - I believe that is the “Caronia’s” message. 16897. Now, did you see any other message about ice? - I cannot give any distinct recollection of having seen any other. You will quite understand we are in and out of the chart room, and I may have seen notices on the board. If they were there I should read them. 16898. I am talking about messages from the Marconi room. Would they be pinned up on a board? - Yes. 16899. You do not remember seeing any other than the “Caronia’s”? - That is what I am explaining. If they were pinned up on this board and I was in the chart room - which we are frequently - I should notice them, make a mental note of the position of the ice, take the most easterly position, and then disregard the rest. 16900. That is to enable you to ascertain how soon you may expect to reach the ice? - Exactly. 16901. Can you tell me what other ice message besides the “Caronia’s” you heard of? - I heard of none that I remember. 16902. Did you hear any conversation about any other ice message? - None. 16903. You did not hear anything about the “Californian’s” ice message? - Of no message except that one I spoke of from 49 deg., to 51 deg. 16904. I daresay you have in your mind the messages which have been referred to? - Yes. 16905. The ice mentioned in the “Caronia’s” message was the easternmost ice of all, was it not? - I believe so. 16906. Now, it is suggested that as you would want to know the most easterly ice you may have disregarded the other messages which indicated ice further west, and may only have bent your mind upon the most easterly ice. Do you think that is so? - Exactly, my Lord, with this reservation that had there been any mention of pack ice there is no doubt I should have fixed that telegram in my mind. (The Witness withdrew.) JOSEPH GROVE BOXALL, Recalled. Further examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY. 16907. You gave evidence the other day. Were you present when Mr. Lowe gave his evidence after you had been called? - Not all the time. 16908. Did you hear him speak about this chit on the chart room table? - No, I have not heard it till just now. 16909. You have heard of it today? - Yes, just this moment. 16910. Had you read his evidence? - No. 16911. Is it only today, just now, that you have got to know about the chit, with “ice” and the position marked? - That is all that I have heard of it, just this moment. 16912. Can you tell us anything about that chit? - Yes. The mentioning of it has refreshed my memory, and I remember writing it out. 16913. (The Commissioner.) You wrote it? - Yes, and it is the position of the “Caronia’s” ice. I copied it off the notice board to save taking the telegram itself down. I copied it on a chit and took it into the Captain’s chart room, and put it on the chart, and that is the ice that I must have put down between 4 and 6 in the evening. 16914. (Sir Robert Finlay.) You have heard, I daresay, of the message sent from the “Amerika” to the “Titanic” for transmission to Cape Race? - Only since I have read the evidence - that is all I had not heard of it before. 16915. Did you ever hear anything of any such message? - Not on board the ship. 16916. It is only in the evidence, since that you have heard of it? - Yes, I think reading over some of the Washington evidence or some of the telegrams that were read over in Washington was the first I heard of it. 16917. The evidence in America? - Yes. 16918. Now, with regard to the “Mesaba” message, you were on the 8 to 12 watch, I think? - Yes. 16919. Did any message from the “Mesaba” ever come to your knowledge, or did you ever hear anything about it? - I never heard anything of the “Mesaba’s” message until the night we arrived in New York on the “Carpathia,” and someone who had been talking to the Captain of the “Mesaba” had heard him say, or he told them that his ship had warned us that night; that was the first of the “Mesaba’s” message that I heard. 16920. The “Mesaba’s” message would have reached you about 10 o’clock, if it was transmitted to the “Titanic”? - Yes. 16921. You were on duty then? - Yes. 16922. You never heard about it? - No, I never heard a word about the ship. 16923. Was there any message during the time you were on duty, from 8 to 12, received by any of the officers on the bridge? - Not to my knowledge. 16924. You know of none. Was Captain Smith on and off the bridge during your watch? - Frequently. 16925. At what intervals did he come on the bridge? - The first that I remember seeing of Captain Smith was somewhere in the vicinity of 9 o’clock, but from 9 o’clock to the time of the collision, Captain Smith was around there the whole of the time; I was talking to him on one or two occasions. 16926. Were you talking to him on the bridge? - Sometimes in the officers’ chart room and sometimes at his chart room door. 16927. What were you talking about? - I was discussing some stellar bearings I had had. I was also standing at his chart room door while he pricked off the 7.30 stellar position of the ship. 16928. Was anything ever said by the Captain about any such message as that that the “Mesaba” sent? - No, none whatever. 16929. You know what the message was? - Yes, I have read it this morning. 16930. It is a message of a somewhat startling character? - Yes, it is. 16931. It is a message that would have been mentioned in conversation if it had been received? - Undoubtedly. 16932. Was the position of the vessel pricked off? - Yes, the Captain pricked the position. 16933. At what time? - It would be pretty nearly 10 o’clock, I should think. The Solicitor-General: He did it then, but it was the position found at 7.30. 16934. (Sir Robert Finlay.) Yes, he pricked it off at 10 o’clock, but it was the position the ship was in at 7.30? - Yes, the stellar position at 7.30. 16935. The observations having been taken at 7.30? - Yes. 16936. In the absence of the Commander, would it have been your duty to open any message sent to the bridge? - I would have taken it to the senior officer of the watch, and let him open it. Very often on dark nights they tell us to take them inside, and we open them inside and tell them the contents of the message. 16937. But you have never heard of any such message from the “Mesaba”? - No, nothing at all. Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL. 16938. You were one of the junior officers? - Yes. 16939. You are called the Fourth Officer. Do the Chief and First and Second Officers count as senior officers? - Yes. 16940. And one or other of those three, as I understand, is always responsible on the bridge? - Yes. 16941. So that you or any other junior officers would merely be there as subordinate to them? - That is true. 16942. You would never be in charge, I mean? - No, not at any time. 16943. Now I put to you the same question as I put to Mr. Lightoller. Can you tell us whether you know of more than one ice message? - Yes, the messages that I can recall are the “Caronia’s,” the “La Touraine,” and there was another ice message which came shortly after the “La Touraine.” I pricked the two of them off at the same time, but I cannot think where it was from. 16944. (The Commissioner.) “I recall the ‘La Touraine’ and another shortly after the ‘La Touraine’”? - Yes. 16945. “And the ‘Caronia’”? - And the “Caronia.” They are the only three messages that I can remember. 16946. Now can you remember anything about the message shortly after the “La Touraine”? - No, only this, that the ice positions which it gave were to the north of the track; they were in all three cases. The Commissioner: I am told the “La Touraine” was far away north. 16947. (The Solicitor-General.) I asked this witness the question before. Yes, it was a long way off. (To the Witness.) But you do not suggest that the “Caronia” message was so far away from your track as to be unimportant? - No, but it was to the north of the track. 16948. You say it was latitude 42, and latitude 42 is your turning point? - Yes, but that is longitude 47; that is two degrees east. The Commissioner: That would be 10 miles, would it not, north of the track? 16949. (The Solicitor-General.) As I make out, about that. (To the Witness.) But we have been told, Mr. Boxhall, that this ice tends to set from north to south? - Yes, with the Labrador current. 16950. So that it is coming down from the north in a southerly direction, and this is a message of ice in latitude 42? - Latitude 42, yes. 16951. About 10 miles north of the track you were going? - Yes. 16952. And a message is sent in respect of ice in that position two days before? The Commissioner: Is there to be any evidence as to the speed at which these bergs go south? The Solicitor-General: I do not know, my Lord. I daresay Mr. Boxhall can help us about it a little. 16953. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Have you any notion how quickly these bergs travel when there is no wind? - No, I have not. I cannot remember any details of the set of the current just at present. 16954. (The Solicitor-General.) We will see if we can get any information, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Is it a question of wind or a question of current? - It is a question of current. 16955. (The Solicitor-General.) It is not wind, your Lordship sees. (To the Witness.) Whether there is a wind or no wind, the current will flow? - Yes, but invariably we find a strong easterly set there; very often we find that the Gulf Stream - 16956. (The Commissioner.) The current changes? - Yes. 16957. It is not constant? - No, it is not; we can tell that by the temperature of the water. 16958. (The Solicitor-General.) No doubt we can get the current chart and show you, but I should like to put to you this. You say you saw the “Caronia” message? - Yes. 16959. The “Caronia” message was a message that said there was this ice in latitude 42 on 12th April. Do you realise that? - I do not remember the date of it. 16960. But it is important, is it not? - Yes. 16961. And you were going to pass about 10 miles south of that spot two days later? - Yes. The Commissioner: That does not convey much to me, unless I know how the ice would have moved in the meantime. 16962. (The Solicitor-General.) I cannot prove all that at once, of course (To the Witness.) But as you understood the matter and understand it now, does that ice tend to be moved by the current southerly? - No, it did not strike me that it would be moving southerly. I have never heard of ice so far south as that before, and I have invariably found that the Gulf Stream is much stronger there than the Labrador Stream is, as far south as that. 16963. Have you ever heard of ice as far south as 42 degrees before? - No, I cannot say that I recollect ice being down as far south as 42 degrees. 16964. (The Solicitor-General.) I want to put two or three questions to you, in order because I want you to follow what I am suggesting. You say you know of some reports of ice, and that you examined them. Is that right? - Yes, that is true. 16965. Now, did you or did you not gather from any of those reports that the ship would soon be in the region of the ice? - No, I cannot say that I had paid particular attention to the ship’s position that night; I had been too busy working it out, and I did not look it out on the chart; I did not realise the ship was so near the region of the ice. 16966. Up to the time of the accident had you seen several reports about ice? - I have seen the reports I have told you about. 16967. Had any of those reports that you had seen conveyed to your mind that your ship would soon be in the region of the ice? - Yes, they did convey that to my mind. 16968. Now, which of them? - The whole lot of them. 16969. Do you mean the message from “La Touraine” showing ice on the Bank of Newfoundland? - No, with the exception of “La Touraine.” She was too far north, of course. 16970. Then it was not the “La Touraine” message? - No. 16971. Then if it was not the “La Touraine” message that conveyed to your mind that the ship would soon be in the region of the ice, what was it? - It must have been the “Caronia’s” message. The Commissioner: It was the only one that I know of that he had which would indicate ice in that neighbourhood, because I do not know what this middle message was, the one that came after the “La Touraine.” 16972. (The Solicitor-General.) Then it was your view that the “Caronia” message did not show that there would be ice to the north of you, but that you would get to the region of that ice? - The positions from the “Caronia” message when I plotted them on the chart were all to the north of the track. The Commissioner: They were, but that is not the question. 16973. (The Solicitor-General.) Let me put it to you again. I do not want to treat you in any way but quite fairly. We will leave the “La Touraine” out? - Yes. 16974. Did any of the messages that you saw about ice convey to your mind that your ship would shortly be in the region of the ice? - Yes. 16975. Which one? - This “Caronia” message. The Commissioner: According to his evidence, the “Caronia” message was the only one which was of any significance. There was “La Touraine” and then another one after the “La Touraine,” about which we know nothing - I know nothing. The Solicitor-General: I cannot trace that at all. The Commissioner: And then comes the “Caronia” and that is all. 16976. (The Solicitor-General.) Are messages about ice, so far as they are material to the ship, put up on a notice board? - Yes, as a rule. 16977. Was that done on this occasion? - Yes, I particularly remember now seeing the “Caronia’s” message on the notice board. 16978. Do you remember seeing any other message except the “Caronia’s” message on the notice board? - No, none that I remember - no other ice reports or other messages that I remember. I must add that there was a message which has come from somewhere or other about a tank steamer. I think we had two or three reports of a German tank steamer that was drifting about on the track without coal. 16979. (The Commissioner.) But not about ice? - No. 16980. (The Solicitor-General.) Listen to this message. I am going to read it to you and see if it reminds you of anything. “A German oil tank steamer ‘Deutschland,’ Stettin to Philadelphia, not under control”? - Yes, I had that in my mind. 16981. Do you know that is part of the message from the “Baltic” about ice? - Yes, I have seen that message today, or heard it read out. 16982. Does your recollection serve you now to show that the message I am referring to is a message that was on the notice board? - No, it does not. 16983. (The Commissioner.) You said you remembered seeing a message about a tank steamer on the notice board? - Yes, but this message on the notice board about the tank steamer had been there two or three days, and this “Baltic’s” message I find today was only received on the Sunday. Sir Robert Finlay: There were other messages about the tank steamer, my Lord. 16984. (The Solicitor-General.) Perhaps Sir Robert will prove that. (To the Witness.) The “Baltic” message - which, of course, was a message to you about ice in this very neighbourhood? - Yes. 16985. Does also happen to contain a reference to a tank steamer? - Yes. 16986. Now I am not speaking about tank steamers, but messages about ice. Just give us your recollection. In your recollection was there one message or more than one message about ice on the notice board? - There is only one message I can recall and that is the “Caronia’s” message. 16987. Do you mean that, so far as you remember, there was no other message, or that you cannot remember the terms of more than one? - I cannot remember any more than the one. 16988. The one message? - That is all. 16989. I must call your attention to the answer which you gave on the 22nd May, on page 354, Question 15318. You are asked by Mr. Asquith this question, “At the time when you came on watch at 4 o’clock” - that is 4 o’clock in the afternoon of Sunday? - Yes. 16989a. “. . . had you heard anything about ice being in the neighbourhood? - (A.) Yes, I had seen reports of ice, and put them on the chart.” Is that right? Sir Robert Finlay: I think if you read the next question and answer - 16990. (The Solicitor-General.) I am going on. Is that right? The Witness: Yes. 16991. Had you received more reports than one and put more than one report on the chart? - Yes. 16992. About ice? - Yes. 16993. Then the next question was, “Reports which had been received earlier on the same day, do you mean? - (A.) No, I cannot say from my own recollection that they were received on Sunday, but subsequently I have heard that some of them, or one of them, that I put on the chart was received on the Sunday, and that I put it on between 4 and 6. All the ice marked on the Captain’s chart I put down myself.” What I want to know is, your recollection serving you candidly, do you remember whether there were on the notice board more than one report about ice? - There must have been more reports on there, because I spoke about reports yesterday that we had had on leaving Southampton or leaving Queenstown about the ice, and those undoubtedly would be on the notice board. 16994. (The Commissioner.) Are these reports not taken down from time to time; do they remain on the notice board? - The reports received for the ensuing voyage are kept there all the voyage. 16995. (The Solicitor-General.) That is the best you can tell us about it? - That is the best I can tell you. The Commissioner: This passage you have read does not appear to be perfectly clear, because it may refer, reading the whole of it, to reports about ice on an earlier date. 16996. (The Solicitor-General.) Of course it may be. As I gather from the witness, whatever be the period to which they refer, it does show there was more than one report about ice on the notice board. That is how it stands, does it not? - Yes. 16997. Now there is another matter. You say that it was you who wrote out this chit of paper? - Yes. 16998. Now, do not hurry about it. Just think a minute, because I have a reason for asking. What was the message from which you got that position? - Something about west-bound steamers reporting ice from latitude 42ş to longitude 49ş to 51ş. 16999. That is the “Caronia” message? - That is the “Caronia” message. 17000. Are you sure? - Yes, I feel pretty sure of that. 17001. Then just follow this. We will just test it. If that is the case, then you would already reach the eastern boundary of the danger zone some time before the collision? - Yes. 17002. Do you know that another of your officers looked at that chit, and made a calculation in respect of it? - No, I did not know. 17003. (The Solicitor-General.) It is so, my Lord; there is a reference to it. The Witness: Yes, I have heard that just now. That is what reminded me of this chit. I have heard that only a moment or two ago. 17004. Now what I am referring to. Mr. Lowe says he saw this chit, which you speak of, and he says he made calculations. ‘I ran this position through in my mind, and worked it out mentally, and found that the ship would not be within the ice region during my watch, that is from 6 to 8.” Do you still think it was the “Caronia” message? - Oh, yes, I feel perfectly confident that it was the “Caronia” message. 17005. Because you mean the “Caronia” message would show reaching the place at some time like half-past 9? - I did not calculate it out; I had not the slightest idea when she would reach the region of the ice or of the “Caronia’s” position rather. 17006. How could that be; I thought you told us the other day that it was you who had worked out these positions and marked them on the chart? - There is no need to work them out at all; you just prick them off on the chart. 17007. Did you do that? - Yes, I pricked them off. 17008. This particular message? - Yes. 17009. Then that would mean you would mark the line on the chart? - No, that is not necessary to mark a line, just mark the positions, the two longitudes, the boundaries of the ice. 17010. Do you remember what time it was you wrote this chit? - No, I cannot recall that, but I have been told I did it between 4 and 6 in my watch on deck. 17011. Who told you that? - Some of the other officers - I do not remember who. They said the ice was marked down there in the 4 to 6 watch. I know there was no one else did it on my watch on deck but me, from 4 to 6. 17012. Then, as I understand it, after that, as far as you are concerned, your attention was not called to any other message about ice? - No, none whatever. 17013. Not to the “Californian” message at half-past 7? - No. 17014. Were you on duty then? - No, I was not on duty until 8 o’clock. 17015. You came on at 8? - Yes. 17016. You did not hear about that? - No. 17017. And not the “Mesaba” message, which, if it came, came later? - No, I never heard anything at all about the “Mesaba” message. (The Witness withdrew.) Sir Robert Finlay: I will recall Mr. Pitman. This will be very short, my Lord. HERBERT JOHN PITMAN, Recalled. Further examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY. 17018. You were Third Officer, as we know? - Yes. 17019. You were on duty, we have heard, from 12 to 4 in the afternoon, and then from 6 to 8 on this Sunday? - That is correct. 17020. Did you ever hear anything about the message from the “Amerika” stated to have been received about 2 p.m. for transmission to Cape Race, or about the “Mesaba” message? - Nothing whatever. Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL. 17021. I will put the same question to you. How many messages about ice on this 14th you know of? - I can only recollect one. 17022. We have been told that messages are posted in the chart room. Did you see any message posted in the chart room? - Yes, only one; that is the “Caronia” message. 17023. You are quite clear about that? - Well, there were a few other messages posted there, but they related to the time we left Southampton. 17024. We are talking about ice? - Yes, there was ice on those reports. 17025. I refer to what you said on page 346. I am going to read you five or six questions and answers beginning at 14921. Mr. Asquith asked you: “Was it within your knowledge that the ship would probably meet with ice that evening? - (A.) We knew that we should be in the longitude of ice. (Q.) Who told you that? - (A.) I saw it in a Marconigram. (Q.) Do you know from which ship that Marconigram had come? - (A.) I have no idea. (Q.) Did you particularly concern yourself with that matter? - (A.) No. I simply looked at them, and saw that there was no ice reported on the track.” Now listen to this: “Did you see one Marconigram or two Marconigrams? - (A.) Two, I think” Is that right? - (A.) No, I am not absolutely certain about that. 17026. But you were absolutely certain three minutes ago that there was only one, were not you? - Yes, I can only recall one. 17027. Just get your memory, now, to serve you as well as it can. I am sure you will. Just tell us frankly. Do you remember posted in the chart room one, or more than one, Marconigram? - I am not certain. 17027a. I do not want to treat you other than fairly, but just listen to the next answer. You were asked, “Were these posted” - those are the two you have just spoken of - “in some part of the ship? - (A.) Yes, in the chart room. (Q.) And you read them, did you? - (A.) Yes.” Is it not clear to you that when you gave evidence on the 22nd May your then impression was that there were two separate messages about ice posted in the chart room. 17028. (Sir Robert Finlay.) It is quite clear he says, yes. I think. The Witness: It may be, but I am not clear on that. 17029. (The Solicitor-General.) When did you cease to be clear? - I have forgotten that I said there were two there. The Commissioner: I think the right question would be, when was he first clear, if ever. The Solicitor-General: You will see it was not the learned Counsel that suggested two to you; he suggested that you had seen one, and you corrected him and said, “No, two.” Sir Robert Finlay: Forgive me; what the learned Counsel said was: “Did you see one Marconigram or two Marconigrams?” and the witness says: “Two, I think.” 17030. (The Solicitor-General.) I think I am quite right. Two questions further up he was asked: “Do you know from which ship that Marconigram had come?” and his answer was: “I have no idea. (Q.) Did you particularly concern yourself with that - matter?” Up to that time Mr. Aspinall has not known anything of more than that one. The witness says “No, I simply looked at them.” And then he is asked: “Did you see one Marconigram or two Marconigrams?” and he says: “Two, I think”? - I think it quite possible there were two there, but one related to the oil tank steamer. 17031. Let us keep to the same point. Did not you understand me just now to be asking about messages about ice? - Yes. 17032. And did not your answers refer to messages about ice? - No, I think you asked me about Marconigrams on the notice board. 17033. Is that the explanation? - Yes. 17034. Now I will put it beyond the possibility of doubt. As far as your knowledge goes, Mr. Pitman, had you ever seen or heard of more than one Marconigram about ice on the 14th April? - One only. 17035. (The Solicitor-General.) Now, my Lord, may I refer you to page 349. (To the Witness.) I want you to hear your answers and just consider. You were asked by Mr. Scanlan at Question 15107: “Was the whole of the knowledge that you had of icebergs obtained from the chart? (The Commissioner.) From the chart room. (Mr. Scanlan.) From the chart in the chart room? - (A.) No, from the Marconigrams.” That is more than one, is it not?- Then the next question is: “Were any Marconigrams handed to you from 12 to 4? - (A.) Not to me. (Q.) Had you seen any Marconigram that reached the ship with reference to ice from 12 to 4 on Sunday? - (A.) I saw two that reached the ship that day.” Now, is that right? - That is correct. They did not relate to ice. 17036. I will read the question again. The question was: “Had you seen any Marconigram that reached the ship with reference to ice from 12 to 4 on Sunday?” That was the question. Did you hear it? - Yes. 17037. That is with reference to ice, do you see? - They did not relate to ice. 17038. But your answer is: “I saw two that reached the ship that day. I have no idea what time they arrived.” Then I ought to read on, I think: “You saw two that day? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Do you know whether they were Marconigrams that had come the previous day, on the Saturday? - (A.) No, they came on the Sunday. (Q.) Are you quite sure of that? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) Did you read them? - (A.) Yes, I read one - yes. (Q.) You read one, but you did not read the other? - (A.) No, not to remember what was on it.” Now, do you mean to represent that when you were asked those questions you thought Mr. Scanlan was asking about the tank steamer? - No, I do not know what he was relating to. 17039. The next question was: “With respect to the one that you did read, can you tell us what was on it? - (A.) No, no more than it stated. “Ice in longitude 40 to 51 W.” (Q.) Where did it come from? - (A.) I have no idea.” Is that the best you can tell us about that matter? - That is it. The Commissioner: That looks as if he had only read one telegram. The Solicitor-General: Yes, but that is a plain question. 17040. (Sir Robert Finlay - To the Witness.) You went off duty at 8? - Yes. (The Witness withdrew.) HAROLD GODFREY LOWE, Recalled. Further examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY. 17041. You were on duty from 6 to 8? - I was. 17042. Did you ever hear anything about a message from the “Amerika” to be sent on to Cape Race about ice? - No. 17043. Or about a message from the “Mesaba”? - No. Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL. 17044. You have told us before about the chit that you saw, the little piece of paper on the chart room table. Can you tell us when you saw it? - I suppose it must have been shortly after 6. 17045. Shortly after 6? - Yes. 17046. What had it on it actually? - It had the word “ice,” and then a position underneath the word “ice.” 17047. What do you mean by a “position”? - That means to say a latitude and a longitude. 17048. (The Commissioner.) Where the ice was? - Where the ice was, my Lord, yes. 17049. (The Solicitor-General.) Did you recognise the writing? - I did not. I suppose I only looked at it casually. 17050. I think you told us before that when you saw it, you reckoned on the chart when you would get to it? - I did not say when we would meet it; I said that I worked it out mentally, and that I found that we should not come to that position during my watch from 6 to 8. That is what I meant to imply. 17051. I think that is exactly what you said. You are quite right. You cannot tell us more about it than that? - I cannot. 17052. I will put the same question to you, and that is the only other thing I want to know. How many reports about ice - I am not talking about tank steamers - did you hear of? - I do not remember having heard of any, and that is the only one that I saw. They may have been on the notice board, and I may not have looked at the notice board. I do not remember looking at the notice board, and that is the only paper or note that I saw referring to ice, as I have stated. (The Witness withdrew.) (Adjourned to tomorrow at 10.30 o’clock.) Wreck Commissioners' Court. SCOTTISH HALL, BUCKINGHAM GATE, Friday, 24th May, 1912. PROCEEDINGS THE RIGHT HON. LORD MERSEY, Wreck Commissioner of the United Kingdom, WITH REAR ADMIRAL THE HON. S. A. GOUGH-CALTHORPE, C.V.O., R.N., CAPTAIN A. W. CLARKE, COMMANDER F. C. A. LYON, R.N.R., PROFESSOR J. H. BILES, LL.D., D.Sc., MR. E. C. CHASTON, R.N.R. Acting as Assessors. ON A FORMAL INVESTIGATION ORDERED BY THE BOARD OF TRADE INTO THE LOSS OF THE S. S. "TITANIC." FIFTEENTH DAY. THE RIGHT HON. SIR RUFUS ISAACS, K.C., M.P. (Attorney-General), SIR JOHN SIMON, K.C., M.P. (Solicitor-General), MR. BUTLER ASPINAL, K.C., MR. S. A. T. ROWLATT and MR. RAYMOND ASQUITH (instructed by SIR R. ELLIS CUNLIFFE, Solicitor to the Board of Trade) appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Board of Trade. THE RIGHT HON. SIR ROBERT FINLAY, K.C., M.P., MR. P. LAING, K.C., MR. MAURICE HILL., K.C., and MR. NORMAN RAEBURN (instructed by Messrs. Hill, Dickinson and Co.), appeared as counsel on behalf of the White Star line. MR. THOMAS SCANLAN, M.P. (instructed by Mr. Smith, Solicitor), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the National Sailors’ and Firemen’s Union of Great Britain and Ireland and of the personal representatives of several deceased members of the crew and of survivors who were members of the Union. (Admitted On application.) MR. B0TTERELL (instructed by Messrs. Botterell and Roche) appeared on behalf of the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom. (Admitted on application.) MR. THOMAS LEWIS appeared on behalf of the British Seafarers’ Union. (Admitted on application.) MR. L. S. HOLMES (of Messrs. Miller, Taylor and Holmes, of Liverpool) appeared on behalf of the Imperial Merchant Service Guild. (Admitted on application.) MR. COTTER appeared on behalf of the National Union of Stewards. (Admitted on application.) MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. Pritchard and Sons), watched proceedings on behalf of the Allan Line Steamship Company. MR. HAMAR GREENWOOD, M.P. (instructed by Messrs. William A. Crump and Son), watched proceedings for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. MR. ROCHE (instructed by Messrs. Charles G. Bradshaw and Waterson) appeared on behalf of the Marine Engineers’ Association. (Admitted on application.) MR. A. CLEMENT EDWARDS. M.P., (instructed by Messrs. Helder, Roberts and Co.), appeared as Counsel on behalf of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers Union of Great Britain and Ireland. (Admitted on application.) MR. W. D. HARBINSON (instructed by Mr. Farrell) appeared on behalf of the third-class passengers. (Admitted on application.) MR. ROBERTSON DUNLOP watched the proceedings on behalf of the owners and officers of the s.s. “Californian.” (Leyland Line). (Admitted on Application.) MR. H. E. DUKE, K. C., M. P., and MR. VAUGHAN WILIAMS (instructed by Messrs. A. F. and R. W. Tweedie) appeared as Counsel on behalf of Sir Cosmo and Lady Duff-Gordon. (Admitted on Application.) HAROLD THOMAS COTTAM, Sworn. Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL. The Commissioner: Is this still upon the messages? The Solicitor-General: This is the Marconi operator on the “Carpathia.” The Commissioner: Oh, yes. 17053. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) Were you the Marconi operator on board the s.s. “Carpathia”? - I was. 17054. Is that a steamer of the Cunard Line? - Yes. 17055. And on the “Carpathia” were you the only operator or had you someone with you? - I was the only one. 17056. I think you had taken up your duties on the “Carpathia” last February had you not? - Yes, about February 10th or 11th, I cannot remember when. 17057. And had been doing the work as a Marconi operator on it from that time up to April the 14th or 15th? - Yes. 17058. Which way was she bound at the time you heard of the accident? - She was bound east from New York to Gibraltar. The Solicitor-General: We have been supplied by the Marconi Company with a print showing the procčs-verbal of this gentleman’s communications with the “Titanic.” They are arranged in order of time and it is convenient to have them in that form. It is the same document that I handed up yesterday, the letter of the 7th May. The Commissioner: I have it. 17059. (The Solicitor-General.) I have some other copies and I will hand them up to your Lordship’s assessors. (Handing copies to the Court and to Witness.) (To the Witness.) Have you before you now the procčs-verbal for the material time? - Yes. 17060. I see that procčs-verbal of yours contains the entries in order of time up to the time when you heard of the disaster and then, I think, your procčs-verbal breaks off? - Yes. 17061. I suppose, owing to the emergency you could not keep a regular record? - No. 17062. (The Solicitor-General.) Your Lordship appreciates that everything in this printed document which is after the time that the disaster is known to the “Carpathia” has been reconstituted since. It is not an actual copy of the document. (To the Witness.) Will you tell us when it was that your ship first got into touch with the “Titanic” on the 14th April. Will you look at page 3 of the print? - 5.10 p.m. 17063. That is New York time? - Yes. The Commissioner: One hour and 50 minutes later, ship’s time? The Solicitor-General: It varies from hour to hour, but substantially it is that. The Commissioner: It is about two hours. The Solicitor-General: Yes, one gets it substantially if one says 7 o’clock. (To the Witness.) Your entry is “Trs. with steamship ‘Titanic’ bound west.” We were told yesterday about the Trs, are they time rushes? - Yes. 17064. And does that show that you were then first getting into communication with the “Titanic”? - Exactly, the first communication. 17065. What is the meaning of your entry following that “one S message received.” What is an S message? - An S is an ordinary public message from the public on the “Titanic’ - from a passenger on the “Titanic.” 17066. You mean a member of the public? - Yes, from a passenger on the “Titanic” to one on ours. The Solicitor-General: I have it here; it is merely a private message from one passenger to another. The Commissioner: You need not trouble about that. 17067. (The Solicitor-General.) Your next entry is “5.30 p.m. signals exchanged with the ‘Titanic’ at frequent intervals until 9.45 p.m.” Would those signals be merely to keep in touch or would they involve the sending of private messages? - Merely to keep in touch. 17068. I see you record at 10 “Good night” to the “Mount Temple” and then at 11.20 p.m. you got your first entry about the disaster? - Yes, that is what I stated in New York, but I found since it was 10.35 I got the first signals. 17069. It was earlier than that, was it? - Yes. The Commissioner: Just have that explained. 17070. (The Solicitor-General.) I will. (To the Witness.) Will you tell us how you know that? - By a chit of paper which I scribbled out at the time. Sir Robert Finlay: I understood this was a copy of the procčs-verbal? The Commissioner: Yes. The Solicitor-General: I do not think Sir Robert perhaps heard what I did interpose to explain, and what the witness said that as soon as the disaster happened, and from that time forward he did not keep his procčs-verbal and therefore it had been reconstituted by the Marconi Company from that point. The Commissioner: Oh, but I understood that up to and inclusive of this message which you are reading it was part of the procčs-verbal, but after they first heard of the disaster then the procčs-verbal stops. 17071. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) How is it? - Right up to the time of the disaster, right up to the time I heard the first signal from them the procčs-verbal was never touched. 17072. (The Commissioner.) Did you enter in that procčs-verbal the important telegram telling you of the calamity? - No, my Lord, I did not. 17073. You did not? - No. 17074. (The Solicitor-General.) You have the document before you? - Yes. The Solicitor-General: Let me see it. (The same was handed.) The Commissioner: Then the procčs-verbal is of no value. Sir Robert Finlay: This is merely from recollection afterwards. 17075. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Your procčs-verbal does not relate at all to the disaster? - No. The Solicitor-General: If you will look, you will see the last two entries in ordinary writing are the entries of 5.30 p.m. and 10 p.m.; the very last entry is 10 p.m. and then in a different writing and with a different pencil there has been something added “‘Titanic’ disaster; apparently too busy to keep entries,” or something of that sort. The Commissioner: What does P.V. mean? The Solicitor-General: P.V. is procčs-verbal. The Commissioner: “Apparently too busy to keep procčs-verbal going.” Will you allow me to ask him a question, or would you rather put it yourself? The Solicitor-General: I would very much sooner you did, my Lord. 17076. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Just look at this document and tell me whether the last entry with the hour opposite to it, 10 p.m., is in your writing (Handing document to the Witness.)? - It is, my Lord. 17077. Now, that is subsequent to the disaster, is it not? - Yes. 17078. And, therefore, you did write something on your procčs-verbal which happened subsequent to the disaster? - Yes. 17079. Now will you read what it is? - Subsequent to the disaster? 17080. Yes, after the disaster. - No, I did not write anything after the entry at 10 p.m. The Commissioner: The entry at 10 p.m. would probably be after the disaster. 17081. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, my Lord; but not after he had heard of it. That is the point. (To the Witness.) At the time when you wrote down that entry, 10 p.m., had you on your ship heard of the disaster? - I had not. The Commissioner: I do not understand that; 10 p.m. means midnight. The Solicitor-General: It does not follow the “Carpathia” picked up the first message sent out into the air. She picked up the first message calling for help later than her hour of 10 p.m. The Commissioner: When did she pick it up? The Solicitor-General: That is it. The Witness: 10.35 p.m., New York time. 17082. (The Commissioner.) Then will you read to me what 10 p.m. says? - 10 p.m. is “Good night to the ‘Mount Temple’; his signals very weak.” 17083. The “Mount Temple” was getting out of range, I suppose? - Yes. The Commissioner: I do not understand this, Sir John. The “Titanic” was well within range at this time; in fact, she had been within range for quite a long time. The Solicitor-General: Yes. 17084. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) If she was well within range and did dispatch a Marconigram to you immediately after the collision - I do not know whether she did or not - you would have heard it at once I suppose? - Yes. The Commissioner: So that if you did not hear it, as you say, until 10.35, which would be about half-past 12 ship’s time, it must have been because the “Titanic” did not dispatch a message to you? The Solicitor-General: May I suggest your Lordship should look at one piece of evidence to check it. If your Lordship will look at page 211 you will find there the evidence of a witness named Durrant. Just to remind your Lordship, you will remember he was Marconi operator on the “Mount Temple,” and we called him because he had kept the receiver to his ear and had noted down what he had overheard through this critical period, this ship having turned and going to the rescue. If your lordship will remember what we did with him was, we took his procčs-verbal, and asked him to read out the entries in order of time, correcting the time all the way through by adding one hour 55 minutes to the New York time. Now if your Lordship will look at Question 9451 I asked him: “Tell us the ship’s time when you first got a message as to the ‘Titanic’ being in distress? - (A.) 12.11 a.m.” Your Lordship appreciates this is one hour 55 minutes on from New York time. Then if you read down five or six answers, the bottom question on the page first brings in the name of the “Carpathia.” It is Question 9458. “That would be 21 minutes after midnight? - (A.) Yes. (Q.) What was it you heard then? - (A.) I have got down here ‘Titanic’ still calling C.Q.D.; is answered by the ‘Carpathia”’ that is this operator. And that your Lordship sees is recorded by the “Mount Temple” operator Durrant as having occurred 21 minutes after midnight, ship’s time, which would be the same thing. The Commissioner: Yes, about the same thing. 17085. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, about the same thing as we are speaking of now. (To the Witness.) You had no one to help you on board the “Carpathia”? You cannot work all the 24 hours. What were you doing or preparing to do about 11 o’clock that night? - Well just previous to having received the signal I was taking the long-distance news from Cape Cod. 17086. That is news that is being sent to the ship from the mainland? - Yes. 17087. Were you going on working, or were you going to bed? - I was going to turn in directly afterwards. 17088. (The Commissioner.) What happens to the instrument when you turn in? Is there any one there to gather up messages that may come? - No, my Lord, nobody at all. 17089. And I suppose you sleep eight hours, or something like that out of the 24? - About eight, yes. 17090. That is supposed to be the regulation. So that for one-third of the time there is, so to speak, no operator on the ship? - No, my Lord. 17090a. (The Solicitor-General.) This was between 11 and 12. I think you said you were preparing to turn in? - I was. 17091. I want you to tell us two or three things about it. You gave evidence in America about it. Had you begun to take your clothes off? - I had taken my coat off. 17092. And you were in course of going to bed? - Yes. I should have been turning in in about 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour. 17093. And had you still got the receiver in your hand or by your side? - No, it was on my head. 17094. Were you waiting for something? - Well, I was waiting for a confirmation of a previous communication I had had with the “Parisian.” 17095. (The Commissioner.) You always have the receiver on your head, have not you? - Not always. 17096. Do not you sit with it on your head? - The greater part of the time we do, yes. 17097. (The Solicitor-General.) You do not go to bed with it, I presume? - No. 17098. You were waiting for a confirmation of some message you had sent? - Yes, I was. 17099. Where were you expecting it to come from? - From the “Parisian.” 17100. As soon as you got that confirmation, had you intended to turn in? - Yes. 17101. And while you were waiting with your coat off, preparing to go to bed and expecting this confirmation, did you hear a message from the “Titanic”? - Well, no, not just then. 17102. Explain it? - After I had waited a long enough time to get this confirmation, I wrote out the chit of the previous communications during the day and reported them to the bridge. After reporting them I returned to the cabin, and I sat down, and I asked the “Titanic” if he was aware there was a batch of messages coming through from Cape Cod for him, and his only answer was, “Struck a berg; come at once.” 17103. Now tell us, as nearly as you can, it is only a recollection, I understand - what it was which the “Titanic” said to you? - She said, “Come at once; we have struck a berg,” and sent his position, and then he sent C.Q.D. The Solicitor-General: Your Lordship sees that just corresponds to what was overheard: “Struck iceberg, come to our assistance. Sends the position.” The Commissioner: Yes. 17104. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) You heard that, and what did you do? What was your reply; what did you do? - I confirmed it before reporting it to the bridge. 17105. Does that mean you got it repeated? - No, I did not get it repeated. I asked him if he intended me to go straight away to the bridge and get the ship turned round immediately, and he said, “Yes, quick.” 17106. Did you go to the bridge? - Straight away, yes. 17107. You reported it to your Captain? - To the officer on watch first, and, from him, to the Captain. 17108. Then what was done about the “Carpathia”? - She was turned round immediately. 17109. And made for the position? - And headed for the position, yes. 17110. Then you, I suppose, would go back to the Marconi room, to your instrument? - Yes, I did; I went right away. 17111. Up to this time had you sent the “Titanic” any news of where you were? - No, not up to then. I went straight away back to the cabin and sent our position. 17112. Who gave you your position? - The Captain gave me our position. 17113. Then you were in a position to tell the “Titanic” where you were? - Yes. 17114. And did you tell her that you were coming to her assistance? - I did. 17115. Just look at this print we have before us. We understand it is not an actual copy of your procčs-verbal. We have: “11.30 p.m. Course altered, proceeding to the scene of the disaster.” Is that an estimate? - Yes, that is a rough estimate, because I made no P.V. of that at all. 17116. Just let us follow what you did after that. Your ship is turned round and making for her. Did you endeavour to keep in touch with the “Titanic”? - I did the whole time. 17117. The whole time? - Yes. 17118. Could you overhear what the “Titanic” was trying to say to other ships? - I was helping the “Titanic” to communicate. 17119. Would you explain that? - Well, the “Titanic” told me when I had sent the position, he said he could not read signals because of the escape of steam and the air through the expansion joint, so I helped him with the communications. 17120. Will you repeat that? - He could not read the incoming signals on account of the escape of steam and the air from the expansion joint; the water rushing into the hollow of the ship was driving the air through the expansion joint. 17121. The expansion joint is a joint that runs across the deck? - Yes, right across the deck just outside the cabin. 17122. Outside where he would be? - Yes. 17123. You would very likely know; would you expect, then, that a great escape of steam, blowing off steam, or a great rush of air, would interfere, in your experience, with messages? - Certainly; it would not be the noise only; it would be the trembling of the ship. 17123a. (The Commissioner.) But mainly the noise? - Mainly the noise, yes, my Lord. 17124. (The Solicitor-General.) And he told you he could not read the messages coming to him clearly? - He said he could not read them well. 17125. What did you do? - I simply stood by. First of all, when I got back he was in communication with the “Frankfurt”; when I came back from the bridge and sent my position he was in communication with the “Frankfurt.” 17126. You heard that? - Yes, I heard that. 17127. (The Solicitor-General.) Now, my Lord, I will just put the thing I have on page 212. I have a record here of something he said to the “Frankfurt.” (To the Witness.) Tell me if this is what you remember. It is at Question 9470: “‘Titanic’ gives position and asks, ‘Are you coming to our assistance?’ ‘Frankfurt’ replies, ‘What is the matter with you?’ ‘Titanic’ says, ‘We have struck an iceberg and sinking. Please tell Captain to come;’ and the ‘Frankfurt’ replied, ‘O.K. Will tell the bridge right away.’ Then the ‘Titanic’ said, ‘O.K., yes, quick.’” That is a record taken down by your colleague on the “Mount Temple”? - Yes. 17128. Does that bring to your mind what you heard? - It does to a certain extent, but it was some 20 minutes afterwards. 17129. It was later than that, was it? - When the “Titanic” first sent her position the “Frankfurt” operator got up apparently and he came back in twenty minutes and asked what was the matter. 17130. You mean there was an interval of time? - Yes, there was. 17131. Could you hear what passed between the “Titanic” and the “Frankfurt” then? - I did not hear it all because I was running backwards and forwards from the bridge reporting the whole time. 17132. Tell us what you did hear? - After that the communications ceased from what I could hear. 17133. (The Commissioner.) What time would that be? That would be close on the foundering? - Oh, no, my Lord. 17134. What time would it be? - I should say about 10.45 New York time. I could not be certain about times at all. 17135. That would be half an hour before the foundering. 17136. (The Solicitor-General.) About that. (To the Witness.) You have told us what you know about the “Frankfurt.” Now tell us this. Do you remember assisting in communications with the “Olympic”? - I did. 17137. Was that before or after the “Frankfurt” incident? - After; some time after. 17138. Tell us what you recollect about the communications with the “Olympic”? - First of all I heard the “Olympic” calling the “Titanic” - a master’s service message, and as the “Titanic” did not reply I came to the conclusion that he was not reading the signals at all, so I asked the “Titanic” if he was aware that the “Olympic” was calling him with a message, and he said he was not, so I said: “Go ahead and call.” He called and afterwards got in communication with the “Olympic.” 17139. So you really got the “Titanic” to get into communication with the “Olympic”? - Yes. The Solicitor-General: There is a reference to that, my Lord, in Durrant’s evidence. The Commissioner: I see it - “‘Titanic’ says weather clear and calm, engine room getting flooded.” 17140. (The Solicitor-General .) That is it. (To the Witness.) Did you hear the message about the engine room that the “Titanic” sent to the “Olympic”? - He sent it to me. 17141. He sent it to you, too. What was the message he sent to you? - He said: “Come as quickly as possible, old man, the engine room is filling up to the boilers.” 17142. (The Commissioner.) “Engine room is filling up to the boilers”? - Yes. 17143. (The Solicitor-General.) In order to fix the time one has to have reference to Durrant’s evidence that he was noting the time by the clock. At Question 9508 I say: “Then six minutes after that, at 1.27 - what was it you heard at 1.27? - (A.) - ‘Titanic’ calling C.Q.D., says engine room flooded.’” That does apparently give ship’s time for it. Did you hear any message from the “Titanic” about people being put into the boats? - No, there was none to that effect at all. 17144. Did you hear any message from the “Titanic” asking that other people should get their boats ready? - No, there was none. 17145. And after the message to the “Olympic,” which you heard, and the message to you about the engine room getting flooded, did communications continue between you and the “Titanic”? - That was the last I heard of the “Titanic,” that message. At 11.55 New York time, that was. 17146. You can fix that time? - Yes, 11.55 New York time. The Commissioner: What is the meaning of: “Twelve-twenty a.m. . . Signals very broken” and “12.28 a.m. - ‘Titanic’ calls C.Q.D. His signals blurred and end abruptly.” 17147. (The Solicitor-General.) Can you help us about this? - I think that is false. The signals were good right away to the end. The Commissioner: Then where does this information come from which has been made up somewhere? The Solicitor-General: I am just inquiring from Mr. Turnbull about it. One wants to understand. Mr. Turnbull tells me that this procčs-verbal, the second part of it, when times come, is accurate as regards times, but it is built up from the records of various ships. As your Lordship was told yesterday, the procčs-verbals all go into the office, and they have pieced together the entries of different ships, so as to give us a chronological statement. The Commissioner: This paper is incorrectly headed “Procčs-verbal of the s.s. ‘Carpathia.’” The Solicitor-General: It is, my Lord. The Commissioner: It is a mixture. The Solicitor-General: Yes; it is none the worse for that, only it is not accurately described as the “procčs-verbal of the ‘Carpathia.’” I will take one instance which strikes one. Take: “12.28 am. - ‘Titanic’ calls ‘C.Q.D.’ His signals blurred and end abruptly.” I have in my hand the procčs-verbal of the “Virginian,” and the “Virginian” gentleman apparently kept it right through this time. He did not break off like Mr. Cottam. Here, I see, “12.27” - The Commissioner: The “Virginian,” I suppose, was out of reach. The Solicitor-General: She did not, of course, get to her, but she could hear, and it reads, “12.27 M.G.Y.” (that, I think, means the “Titanic”) “calls C.Q.” - it says “C.Q.” here - “unable to make out his signal; ended very abruptly, as if power suddenly switched off. His spark rather blurred or ragged. Called M.G.Y. and suggested he should try emergency set, but heard no response.” The Commissioner: Very well. This document is evidently a shortened account of the messages received by different ships. The Solicitor-General: That is it. The Commissioner: After the time when this gentleman stopped recording in the procčs-verbal of the “Carpathia.” The Solicitor-General: That is right. I think your Lordship may take it that where times of the clock are printed on the document they are actually copied from an entry. The Commissioner: From some information from some ship. The Solicitor-General: Yes, from one or other of the ships. Sir Robert Finlay: It is a document of very little value. The Commissioner: Well, that may be. At present, Sir Robert, I do not see, except as part of the story, that it is of any significance. It is after the accident. It is part of the story, but it is really of very little assistance in this Inquiry. 17148. (The Solicitor-General - To the Witness.) After that time did you continue to try to call up the “Titanic” from time to time? - I did, at frequent intervals. 17149. And, as we know, you did not get any further communication? - No. 17150. I do not think we need go through what follows. You had a number of messages, I see, to a number of ships finding that they also were going to the same spot? - Yes. 17151. And when was it you heard that the disaster had occurred? I suppose you did not know till you actually came there and saw the boats? - No, I did not know that the “Titanic” had gone down. 17152. (The Commissioner.) There is this signal or extract, I do not know where it comes from: “Daybreak. ‘Carpathia’ arrives on the scene of the disaster.” What time is daybreak, New York time? - I cannot remember, I am sure. 17153. (The Solicitor-General.) You must have taken enough interest to see the boats when they came in sight? - Yes. 17154. Had day broken? - No, it was not daybreak; it was pretty dark when the boats were picked up. Day broke just after that, just after we had picked the first boat up. The Commissioner: It does not matter. 17155. (The Solicitor-General.) I do not think it matters at all. (To the Witness.) And the boats were picked up, as we know? - Yes. 17156. No doubt you had a great many messages to send after you had got these poor people on board? - Yes, I did. 17157. As far as I have been able to check it at present, the only other matter I want is this one thing. Will you take this message in your hand and tell me whether it is a message which you sent, after rescuing these people, from the “Carpathia.” Do you recognise it (Handing document to the Witness.)? - Yes I do. 17158. Just read the message out, will you? - “To Captain ‘Olympic.’ Mr. Ismay orders ‘Olympic’ not to be seen by ‘Carpathia’; no transfer to take place. (Signed) Rostron, Captain of ‘Carpathia.’” [No Answer.] 17159. Is that the Captain of the “Carpathia”? - Yes. 17160. (The Commissioner.) Let me see it. Is this what you call a chit? - Yes; that is a chit of paper. 17161. Pinned or stuck on to an ordinary form? - Yes, pasted on an ordinary form. 17162. There is nothing written on the form? - Only the number of words you will see there in red ink. 17163. “To Captain ‘Olympic.’” Now, where was the “Olympic” at this time? 17164. (The Attorney-General.) A long way? - The “Olympic” was heading towards the scene of the catastrophe at that time. 17165. “Mr. Ismay’s orders, ‘Olympic’ not to be seen by ‘Carpathia.’” What is the meaning of that? Do you know what it means? - I presume it was not advisable for the survivors of the “Titanic” to see the “Olympic,” the sister ship to the “Titanic.” 17166. Why not? I do not understand it at all. The Solicitor-General: It would appear, I suggest, though Mr. Ismay will no doubt explain it to you, that Mr. Ismay was giving a direction as to the course, or the respective courses to be taken by the two ships, that they were not to come within range of one another. The Commissioner: The “Olympic” and what? The Solicitor-General: And the “Carpathia.” Of course, the “Olympic” is a White Star ship. Sir Robert Finlay: I understand it was merely this: The “Olympic” is so very like the “Titanic” that if the survivors on the “Carpathia” had seen the “Olympic” it might have been supposed, ”Here is the ‘Titanic,’ not lost after all.” I mean it was some idea of that kind, sparing the feelings of people on board the “Carpathia.” The Attorney-General: We only want the message. The Commissioner: The only thing is, it was unintelligible to me. The Attorney-General: It is something which Mr. Ismay will, no doubt, explain when he comes, but it was desirable to have it now. Sir Robert Finlay: May I see it, my Lord. (The same was handed to the learned Counsel.) Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY. 17167. No one hears a message coming on the Marconi system unless he has the apparatus to his ear? - No, he does not. 17168. There is no signal, no sound to call attention? - There is no detector to show. 17169. Of course, you were the only operator on board the “Carpathia”? - I was. 17170. You are asleep for, say, eight hours, and you do not keep on the apparatus at meal times? - No, not exactly. 17171. Nor all the time otherwise? - Oh, no, there is no necessity; in some parts of the ocean, of course. 17172. And while you do not happen to have it on, whatever number of hours out of the 24 that may be, no message would be taken up? - No, no message would be registered at all. 17173. Now with regard to this document, which is headed: “Procčs-verbal of the s.s ‘Carpathia’” - was this prepared by you? - No, this was not. 17174. Who prepared it? - It was prepared by our company from the procčs-verbals of the various ships that were in the vicinity of the catastrophe at the time. Sir Robert Finlay: Will your Lordship look at the second paragraph of the covering letter of the 7th May, 1912? The Commissioner: Yes. Sir Robert Finlay: “We annex hereto a copy of the procčs-verbal of the ‘Carpathia’ station, dating from the time at which this vessel first entered into communication with the ‘Titanic,’ which was some five hours previous to the collision, until the ‘Carpathia’ arrived in New York with the survivors some four days later.” This is not the procčs-verbal of the “Carpathia” at all. The Witness: Well, it is in a sense; it is a reconstituted procčs-verbal. The Commissioner: It is not anything of the kind. The first three entries on page 3 are, as I understand, taken verbatim from the procčs-verbal of the “Carpathia”? - Exactly. The Commissioner: And none of the others are taken from the procčs-verbal at all because there is no procčs-verbal of the “Carpathia.” 17175. (Sir Robert Finlay - To the Witness.) That is so, is it not? - That is so. 17176. You had nothing to do with this letter saying that a copy of the procčs-verbal of the “Carpathia” was annexed? - Nothing at all. The Commissioner: It is, as I understand, a compilation? The Attorney-General: That is what it is. The Commissioner: Of a number of messages recorded by a number of ships. The Attorney-General: We have had it put together. It is only right to say this. Your Lordship will understand this document of the 7th May was prepared in answer to a request made by us. As your Lordship knows, we have been working at very great pressure, and we asked the company to let us have, as soon as they could, some information with regard to the messages of the “Carpathia.” They prepared this, and in their office they call it a procčs-verbal. It is stated later on that it is a log of further communications effected. There is no doubt about it. It is a compilation, as your Lordship says, from documents in their possession, every one of which can be produced and will be produced. The Commissioner: They can be; I hope they will not be. The Attorney-General: It may not be necessary. The Commissioner: It is immaterial. The Attorney-General: Except up to a certain point. Sir Robert Finlay: I understand you do not regard some of the times put there as right? The Witness: Not so much the times; it is the entries opposite the times I do not agree with. 17177. You said in regard to one entry it was false. Which entry was that? - It may not have been the time. 17178. Something about it was false. Which entry was that? - The one at 12.28. 17179. What is false about that “12.28 a.m. ‘Titanic’ calls ‘C.Q.D.’ His signals blurred and end abruptly.” What is false about that? - Well, he did not do that at all. His last message was, “Come as quickly as possible; our engine room is filling up to the boilers,” and his signals were perfectly right to the end of the message. 17180. Then this is purely imaginary? The Solicitor-General: Sir Robert, I do not think you could have been following. Sir Robert Finlay: I have been following only too well. The Solicitor-General: I do not know whether you were following too well, but if you were following you would have heard me read from the procčs-verbal of the “Virginian” and explain to my Lord that this entry, 12.28 a.m., was copied from the “Virginian” procčs-verbal, and was there in their records. Sir Robert Finlay: Be it so. The Solicitor-General: Do not call it imaginary. Sir Robert Finlay: It is purely imaginary, so far as the “Carpathia” is concerned. The Commissioner: Yes, that we understand, but apparently it was information which has been gathered from another ship. Sir Robert Finlay: Oh. yes. The Commissioner: And which the Marconi Company have placed at the service of the Board of Trade. The Attorney-General: Yes, that is it, information to us. Sir Robert Finlay: So be it. In that sense there is no objection whatever. The Commissioner: And any way, Sir Robert, it appears to me immaterial. Sir Robert Finlay: I will not spend time upon it. The Commissioner: What happened after the event does not matter much. 17181. (Sir Robert Finlay.) With regard to hours, can you help me about hours - with regard to the first message, here it is put in “11.20 p.m. Heard ‘Titanic’ calling ‘S.O.S.’ and ‘C.Q.D. Answered him immediately” and so on. I understand you to say that time should be, you think, 10.35? - 10.35 exactly. The Attorney-General: I think the witness explained. I do not know whether you caught it, that he had said in America 11.20. That appears here. 17181a. (Sir Robert Finlay.) I had. (To the Witness.) How do you get at the 10.35? - I had another chit of paper with that on. I got it directly after Cape Cod had finished the first round of press. I know he finishes at half-past 10 so that I know it must have been at 10.35. 17182. This is New York time you are speaking of? - Yes, New York time right throughout. 17183. Where did you have this chit of paper? - It was on the desk in the “Carpathia” when I left her. 17184. When you left her? - Yes. 17185. Had you that in New York? - I had not the chit of paper, no; it was in my bag; I have found it since. 17186. You have found it since? - Yes. 17187. In America in giving evidence you said 11.20; is that so? - Yes. The Attorney-General: About 11.20 New York time. 17188. (Sir Robert Finlay - To the Witness.) Since that you have found a bit of paper which shows it was 10.35? - Yes, not only that; the mere fact of my standing by directly after the first round of press proves that it was somewhere near 10.35. 17189. I am not finding fault with you in the slightest degree. When did you write down this chit? - It must have been when I was working at the time of the catastrophe. I cannot remember when I wrote it down, or I should have had it all the time. 17190. Have you got it? - It is somewhere in my bag, I think. 17191. Is your bag here? - No. 17192. Where is your bag? - It is at the office, the Marconi office. The Commissioner: Well, I do not know that it is of much importance, but you might get it for us at some time. The Attorney-General: What is it that is wanted? The Commissioner: The piece of paper upon which he made the right record of the time? The Attorney-General: Yes, 10.35. Sir Robert Finlay: You can get that for us. The Witness: I think I can - I will try. 17193. The only other question I have to ask you is about the last message. In New York I think you said “It was 11.55 New York time when I received the last message from the ‘Titanic’”? - It was exactly. 17194. How do you fix that time; did you make a note of that? - By the clock. 17195. Did you make a note of that? - Oh, yes. 17196. (The Commissioner.) Where? - I memorised it. There is no written note or record of details of the catastrophe at all. 17197. (Sir Robert Finlay.) You did not make a chit of that? - I did not. 17198. You remember it? - I do, distinctly 17199. That would be New York time? - New York time. 17200. Was your clock New York time? - Yes. 17201. It was? - Yes. Mr. Cotter: With your Lordship’s permission can I ask the witness a few questions. The Commissioner: Not on this part of the case. If you want to ask him about some other part, yes. You will not help me at all by interfering in this. Mr. Cotter: It is affecting the crew. The Commissioner: Oh, yes; anything of that kind you can ask. Examined by Mr. COTTER. 17202. Do you remember the survivors being taken on the “Carpathia”? - I do, some of them. 17203. How long after they had been taken on board was it when you sent the list of names of the passengers saved to New York? - I cannot remember, I am sure. 17204. Do you remember ever sending a list of the crew saved to New York? - I do, yes. 17205. When was that? Do you remember? - I cannot remember times at all. I have no records, and I could not tell you. 17206. Was it the same day, or the day after, or when you got to New York? - I should say it would be on the Tuesday, I could not say for certain. 17207. Did you send a list of the crew at the same time as you sent a list of the passengers; I mean the details, the names? - No; the first and second class passengers went to the “Olympic”; the crew went to the “Minnewaska.” 17208. How long after? - I do not know; I cannot remember. 17209. Was it 24 hours? - I could not say, I am sure; I have no record of it. The Attorney-General: Does your Lordship wish to ask this witness any questions? The Commissioner: No. The Attorney-General: What I propose to do is this. What I have asked the Marconi Company to do is to prepare in form a document with a copy of the messages - not a translation of them, but a copy of the messages which were received by the “Titanic” or sent by the “Titanic” from the 12th to the 14th up to shortly after the striking. That, I think, is the important matter which your Lordship asked for. The Commissioner: Yes. The Attorney-General: We will have the messages on one document so that you will see with what ships the communication was being made, from what ships ice reports were being sent, and at what time. The Commissioner: You will let me have a copy of that? The Attorney-General: Yes, we will have it printed so that my friends can also have it. The Commissioner: I wish to direct Sir Robert Finlay’s attention to this. I should like, opposite each one of those messages, a reference to the evidence showing whether the message was communicated to the bridge or not - the evidence that bears on that point. The Attorney-General: So far as it is before the Court? The Commissioner: So far as it before the Court; because my anxiety is to know, as I said yesterday, what was the state of Captain Smith’s and the officers’ knowledge of these messages at the time of the disaster. The Attorney-General: Yes, I quite appreciate that. Sir Robert Finlay: I will see that is put in, my Lord. As I understand it, your Lordship would like to have a reference, opposite each message, to the evidence bearing on the point whether it was communicated to Captain Smith or the other officers. The Commissioner: I prefer the expression “to the bridge.” Sir Robert Finlay: I said, “To Captain Smith or the other officers.” The Commissioner: Very well. The Attorney-General: That must be checked. Sir Robert Finlay: Oh, certainly. 17210. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) Can you explain to me why, if the “Virginian” heard the message from the “Titanic” at 12.28, New York time, you did not hear it? Would it be perhaps that you had not the cap, or whatever you call it, on your head? - Well, I had the telephone on my head the whole time, because I was waiting for a message - The Commissioner: Can you explain to me, Mr. Attorney, why that message of 12.28, which as I understand is obtained from the procčs-verbal of the “Virginian,” was not heard by the “Carpathia”? The Attorney-General: We have to work out what 12.28 “Virginian” means. 17211. (The Commissioner.) Of course you have, because it does not mean exactly the difference of one hour 55 minutes; it depends upon the position. (To the Witness.) But what I cannot understand is why, if the “Virginian” was hearing these signals from the “Titanic,” you were not hearing them. I can understand it, you know, if you had not got the instrument over your ears at the time. When you run from the office to the bridge are you able to keep this instrument on your head? - Oh, no, my Lord. 17212. Then if you were running to the bridge you might put it off your head and you would not hear? - Well, yes, if I put it off my head to go to the bridge I would not hear. 17213. And you were running to the bridge at this time, were you not? - No, I did not run to the bridge then. 17214. I thought you were going to the bridge to communicate the messages? - I did most of them. 17215. Then if messages came while you were on your way to the bridge or on your way back from the bridge you would not hear them? - No, I would not; but I was waiting to give the “Titanic” a message at the same time that he sent me this one. The Commissioner: I am afraid you do not quite follow, but I do not think it matters. The Attorney-General: While your Lordship’s mind is upon it, you had better just look at this: We have here the procčs-verbal of the “Virginian,” which I will hand up to you and you will see there written out, “12.27 M.G.Y. calls C.Q.; unable make out his signal; ended very abruptly, as if power suddenly switched off - his spark rather blurred or ragged. Called M.G.Y., and suggested he should try emergency set, but heard no response.” (The same was handed to the Commissioner.) The Commissioner: That is enough. It justifies the extract that is put in here. The Attorney-General: It is obvious, if you look at it, that it has not been made after the event. It is there in the middle of the page, in its proper order. (The Witness withdrew.) FREDERICK FLEET, Sworn. Examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL. 17216. Frederick Fleet, you have been in the employ of the White Star Company for some seven years, have you? - Yes. 17217. And you went on the trial trip of the “Titanic,” did you not? - Yes. 17218. As look-out man? - Yes. 17219. And then you signed articles at Southampton as look-out man? - Yes. 17220. And went this voyage that ended so disastrously? - Yes. 17221. Before you went on the “Titanic,” had you been look-out man for a number of years on the “Oceanic”? - Yes. 17222. That was also in the North Atlantic service? - Yes. 17223. How many years? - About four years. 17224. Had your eyes been tested by the Board of Trade? - Yes. 17225. You have gone through an examination? - Yes. 17226. And got a certificate? - I had one, but I lost it. 17227. Lost it? - In the “Titanic.” 17228. But, at any rate, you had got it before you went this voyage in the “Titanic”? - Yes. 17229. Your watch as look-out man, I think, was from 4 to 6 and 10 to 12? - Yes. 17230. Is that 4 to 6 in the day? - And night. 17231. And 10 to 12 in the day and night? - Yes. 17232. Your mate, I think, was Lee? - Yes. 17233. (The Attorney-General.) Lee has been examined, and you will find his evidence at page 72. (To the Witness.) And it was your duty to relieve Jewell. You did relieve him that night? - Yes, and Symons. 17234. Jewell was the first witness called. Jewell and Symons were the two? - Yes. 17235. When you relieved Jewell and Symons on Sunday, 14th April, at 10 o’clock you went to the crow’s-nest? - Yes. 17236. Was any word passed to you when you relieved them? - Yes. 17237. Tell us what it was? - They told us to keep a sharp look out for small ice and growlers. 17238. Did they say whether they had had any orders to do that? - Yes, they said they had had orders from the bridge. 17239. They got the orders from the bridge? - Yes, and passed it on to us. 17240. They had had orders to do that whilst they were on the watch and then they gave the word to you when you were going to take up the duties of look-out men? - Yes. 17241. Then you remained in the crow’s-nest with your mate Lee, and the other two left? - Yes. 17242. Did both of them say anything to you about this, or only one? - One, Symons. 17243. Did Lee say anything to you about it? - No. 17244. Up to that time had you heard anything at all about ice? - No. 17245. Now at the time you went into the crow’s-nest, which would be at 10 o’clock on that night, was the sky clear? - Yes. 17246. The sea we know was very calm? - The sea calm. 17247. The stars shining? - Yes. 17248. Could you clearly see the horizon? - The first part of the watch we could. 17249. The first part of the watch you could? - Yes. 17250. After the first part of the watch what was the change if any? - A sort of slight haze. 17251. A slight haze? - Yes. 17252. Was the haze on the waterline? - Yes. 17253. It prevented you from seeing the horizon clearly? - It was nothing to talk about. 17254. It was nothing much, apparently? - No. 17255. Was this haze ahead of you? - Yes. 17256. Was it only ahead, did you notice? - Well, it was only about 2 points on each side. 17257. When you saw this haze did it continue right up to the time of your striking the berg? - Yes. 17258. Can you give us any idea how long it was before you struck the berg that you noticed the haze? - No, I could not. 17259. Can you tell us about how long you had been on duty before you noticed the haze? - I could not say. I had no watch. 17260. I want you to give us some idea. You came on duty at 10 o’clock. We know that the berg was struck at about 11.40. That gives us an hour and 40 minutes, during which time you were in the crow’s-nest all the time. That is right, is it not? - Yes. You say the first part of the watch it was clear and then there came this change which you have described. I want you to give some idea of when it was you noticed the change - when it got to a haze. 17261. (The Commissioner.) We do not want you to guess, you know; if you cannot tell us you must not guess. The Witness: Well, I daresay it was somewhere near seven bells. 17262. (The Attorney-General.) Somewhere near seven bells, which would be half-past 11? - Yes. 17263. Did you say anything to your mate about it? - Well, I told him there was a slight haze coming. 17264. Is that Lee? - Lee. 17265. At the time that you noticed the haze was there anything in sight? - No. 17266. Did it interfere with your sight ahead of you? - No. 17267. Could you see as well ahead and as far ahead after you noticed the haze as you could before? - It did not affect us, the haze. 17268. It did not affect you? - No, we could see just as well. 17269. You did not report it then, I gather from that? - No. 17270. You did not say anything about it to the bridge? - No. 17271. (The Attorney-General.) I think it is necessary to direct your Lordship’s attention to Question 2408 at page 73 of Lee’s evidence. I have asked him his story in detail, but I think it is necessary to put it to him now. I will read it. (To the Witness.) Just listen to this, Fleet. This is a question put to your mate and I will read you his answer. “Did you notice this haze which you said extended on the horizon when you first came on the look-out or did it come later? - (A.) It was not so distinct then - not to be noticed. You did not really notice it then - not on going on watch, but we had all our work cut out to pierce through it just after we started. My mate” - that is you - “happened to pass the remark to me. He said ‘Well if we can see through that we will be lucky.’ That was when we began to notice there was a haze on the water. There was nothing in sight”? - Well, I never said that. 17272. You never said it? - No. The Commissioner: I may tell you, Mr. Attorney, I am not at all disposed to give credit to that man’s evidence on that point. It is quite inconsistent with all the other evidence. The Attorney-General: I thought it right to call your Lordship’s attention to it, and put it to the witness. I put the conversation to him, and he has given his answer, and there it rests. Your Lordship has to determine which you accept. I gather from what your Lordship said just now - I want to be clear that I am right - that his evidence with regard to the haze as interfering with his sight is the matter which you say is not satisfactory. The Commissioner: Yes, I will tell you at once. My impression is this, that the man was trying to make an excuse for not seeing the iceberg, and he thought he could make it out by creating a thick haze. The Attorney-General: There is some other evidence, but I will direct attention to it later, when we come to deal with it. I am not sure, but my impression is that up to this moment we have no evidence of anybody who was watching, except these two men; I mean there is no officer who has been able to give evidence as to this, no officer was actually looking or watching at the time. The Commissioner: Or seeing? The Attorney-General: Or seeing. Of course, I mean who have been called before you. I am speaking of evidence. The only evidence we have got of persons who were actually looking out is the evidence of Lee and this witness. The Commissioner: We have evidence of the state of the sky before the accident and after the accident. The Attorney-General: Yes. Sir Robert Finlay: And Mr. Boxhall, I think, was on the bridge. The Commissioner: I mean the evidence before and after the accident is that the sky was perfectly clear, and therefore if the evidence of the haze is to be accepted, it must have been some extraordinary natural phenomenon - something that sprang up quite suddenly, and then vanished. The Attorney-General: Yes. The Commissioner: However, this witness denies he said it. The Attorney-General: It is all in a very small compass, the evidence with regard to this, and certainly Lee’s evidence is the strongest about the haze. I do not think any witness goes as far. The Commissioner: It was so thick that you would have great trouble, as he said, cutting through it. The Attorney-General: Yes, I think that is the only evidence to that effect. 17273. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) I understand you to say that whatever it was, it made no difference to the look-out? - Yes, my Lord. 17274. (The Attorney-General.) Who was it first saw the berg? Was it you or Lee? - Well, I do not know. 17275. Well, which of you gave the signal? - I did. You were looking ahead. Will you tell my Lord what it was - what you saw? The Commissioner: This is the three bell signal. 17276. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, we are coming to it, the three bell signal, something ahead. (To the Witness.) Now describe to my Lord what it was you saw? - Well a black object. 17277. A black object. Was it high above the water or low? - High above the water. 17278. What did you do? - I struck three bells. 17279. Was it right ahead of you, or on the port or starboard bow? - Right ahead. 17280. You struck three bells immediately, I suppose? - Yes, as soon as I saw it. 17281. What did you do next? - I went to the telephone. 17282. Was that on the starboard side of the crow’s-nest? - Yes. 17283. You went to the telephone, and - ? - Rang them up on the bridge. 17284. Did you get an answer? - Yes. 17285. Did you say anything to them at once, or did they answer you before you told them? - I asked them were they there, and they said yes. 17286. Yes? - Then they said, “What do you see?” I said, “Iceberg right ahead.’ They said, “Thank you.” 17287. Then you dropped the telephone, did you? - Yes. 17288. What did you do next? - I kept the look-out again. 17289. You were approaching the berg meanwhile? - Yes. 17290. Are you able to give us the distance, or about the distance, the berg was from your ship when you first saw it? - No. 17291. And except for what happened you have nothing to guide you as to the time either, have you? - No. 17292. We must get it from the events. Did you notice any change in the heading of your vessel after you gave this report? - After I rang them up on the ‘phone and looked over the nest she was going to port. 17293. You were looking over the nest. Were you still on the starboard side of the nest? - No; my place is on the port, but I went to starboard to telephone. 17294. Did you remain there when you dropped the telephone, or did you go back to your own place? - I went back to my own place again. 17295. It would be on the port side of the crow’s-nest? - On the port side. 17296. You saw her head turn to port, I think I understood you to say? - Yes. Was the vessel still turning to port when she struck the berg, can you tell us? (After a pause.) 17297. (The Commissioner.) Do not say you can if you cannot? - She went to port all right, and the berg hit her on the starboard bow. 17298. (The Attorney-General.) She went to port. Do you mean she had a slight turn to port? - Well, going to port. 17299. She was still going to port when the berg struck her? - On the starboard bow. 17300. When you saw the vessel strike you felt it, did you; could you see it? - Certainly. 17301. What did you see when that happened? Your vessel, as I understand you, was going to port. Then you say she struck an iceberg. Tell us what you saw. You were in the crow’s-nest, watching it were you not? - Yes. 17302. Did you see any ice come on the deck? - Yes, some on the forecastle head and some on the well deck. 17303. Could you tell how high, at all, the berg was? - No, I could not. 17304. You could not tell us in feet, of course, or measurement in that way, but can you give us any idea; was it as high as you were? - Just a little bit higher than the forecastle head. 17305. (The Commissioner.) Now someone can tell me how high from the water was the forecastle head? - I do not know. The Commissioner: No, you cannot; but someone can. The Attorney-General: About 40 to 50 feet, I think. Sir Robert Finlay: About 55 feet, my Lord. 17306. (The Commissioner - To the Witness.) This berg that you struck must have been higher than the forecastle head because ice fell from it on to the forecastle head and on to the well deck, so I suppose it must have been higher than the forecastle head. That would be so, would it not? - Yes. 17307. Now, how much above the forecastle head did this berg stand, about. Can you show me in this room, I mean. If you cannot, do not try? - No, I do not know. The Commissioner: It is far better to say you do not know. 17308. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) You will tell me if you can? - I cannot say; I do not know. 17309. Was it as high as you were on the crow’s-nest? - No, it was not. 17310. Not as high as that? - No. 17311. But above the forecastle head? - Yes. Sir Robert Finlay: Mr. Wilding has just verified it again, and finds it was 55 feet above the waterline. The Attorney-General: I think the crow’s-nest is about 40 feet above the deck. Sir Robert Finlay: Above the forecastle, yes. The Attorney-General: One can form some impression of the height. The Commissioner: In the crow’s-nest you know he would be looking down upon this when it struck, and not looking up to it. He said that the berg was not as high as the crow’s-nest. The Attorney-General: Yes, he is quite clear about that. What I have got from him is: It was not as high as the crow’s-nest, but it was higher than the forecastle head, and that is about as much as we could expect to get. The Commissioner: It may have been standing about 75 feet above the surface of the water. 17312. (The Attorney-General.) Yes, that is probably as near as we should ever get to it. (To the Witness.) You say the berg passed, did you? - Yes. 17313. As you were looking over to the starboard side of the ship? - Yes. 17314. Could you give us some idea of what it looked like when it came. Was it a great big mass that passed you, or was it a small mass that you could see? - Well, a great big mass. 17315. Do you mean like a great block? - Yes. 17316. When you saw it first could you form an idea of what height it was? - No. 17317. Well, it looked smaller, presumably? - Yes. 17318. Then did you remain on the crow’s-nest? - Yes. 17319. Until eight bells? - Till eight bells went. 17320. At eight bells, in the ordinary course, you were relieved? - Yes. 17321. I think then Hogg and Evans relieved you. Now, will you tell me, supposing there had been a haze, would it be your duty to report it at all to the bridge? - I have never reported haze yet. 17322. They would be on the bridge, you mean, and see it for themselves; is that what you mean? - Yes. 17323. Did you have any conversation with your mate, Lee, after you struck? - Well, I told him I thought it was a narrow shave - after we had hit it, after we had hit the ice. 17324. (The Commissioner.) It was a little more than a shave? - That was only my idea. 17325. (The Attorney-General.) You thought it was not anything very serious? - No, it was such a slight noise; that is why I said it. 17326. You thought it was nearly serious, but not quite? - Yes. 17327. (The Attorney-General.) I do not propose to take him right through the story of what happened with regard to the boats. We have heard enough, I submit, about that. (To the Witness.) You were eventually saved in boat No. 6? - Yes. 17328. (The Attorney-General.) Your Lordship will remember we have had some evidence about that from the Quartermaster, Hichens, but your Lordship shall have all that in the digest we are making for your Lordship. It is the one in which Major Peuchen was also. There is only one thing I would ask. (To the Witness.) Do you remember how many women there were in the boat, in boat No. 6? - About 23 or 24. 17329. (The Commissioner.) And how many altogether, including the crew? - Well, about 28 or 29; there was only me and Hichens of the crew. 17330. Twenty-four women. Were there any men passengers? - Two - one first and one-third, and two crew. 17331. And that was the whole boatload? - Yes. The Attorney-General: That does not quite agree with the evidence of Hichens, the Quartermaster. That you will find at page 43. The Commissioner: Will you tell me the effect? The Attorney-General: He says this at Question 1106: “How many people did you take on board? - (A.) 42, all told.” He said there was one seaman besides himself, and 40 passengers, and of that 40 all were women except one man and one boy. That is his evidence, and he went through it in some detail. The passenger was Major Peuchen, your Lordship will remember. The Commissioner: Yes; if that witness is right, this witness is probably making a mistake about the number of women. The Attorney-General: I think so. The Witness: I am not making any mistake at all. 17342. You are not? - I am not. 17343. Did you count them? - I did. 17344. Very well. How many were there? - I said 24 women. I know what I am talking about. Well, I should hope so. Do not be angry about it. We are not making any attack upon you; we are only calling attention to the evidence. The Commissioner: Do not take offence. No one intends to annoy you. The Attorney-General: No one is casting an imputation upon you. The Commissioner: We only want you to state the truth, that is all. The Witness: Well, I am telling the truth. The Commissioner: I am sure you are doing your best. 17345. (The Attorney-General - To the Witness.) Perhaps you can tell us this. Did